Elgar/Payne Symphony No 3 - is it to fade out of sight ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Some Elgar is published by B&H, the P&C Marches, Sea Pictures, Cockaigne Overture.

B&H scores are always considerably over-priced & not always of the best quality either.

- the pocket score of the Fifth Symphony is very difficult to read. I think they've stopped producing Pocket Scores - either that, or they've got an entirely erroneous idea of the size of people's pockets.

However bargains are to be found, I purchased the Elgar/Payne 3rd for only around £10

- that is a bargain. The cheapest I can find at the moment is £32 - and B&H (and Presto Classical) want £41 - all with P&P to go on. I'd've been prepared to spend £20, but at these prices, I'll stick with the copy in Leeds Library. (I very much doubt that I'll ever feel the need to give it as much use or attention as I do the Payneless Symphonies.)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I think Boosey and Hawkes were to have published the work in the 1930s.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think Boosey and Hawkes were to have published the work in the 1930s.

Aah! That would explain things. Thank you.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Autographs from the world premiere in 1998.







(even signed by the composer )

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Information from Boosey & Hawkes hire/performance diary confirms that there are no definite plans for any performance of the Elgar/Payne in the near future. But they have had "several enquiries which may become confirmed in due course".


Perhaps uncharitably, I do wonder - if the hire costs are as eyebrow-raising as the price of the study score - if orchestras are being put off from going beyond the "enquiry" stage?

[ahinton]

Information from Boosey & Hawkes hire/performance diary confirms that there are no definite plans for any performance of the Elgar/Payne in the near future. But they have had "several enquiries which may become confirmed in due course".


Perhaps uncharitably, I do wonder - if the hire costs are as eyebrow-raising as the price of the study score - if orchestras are being put off from going beyond the "enquiry" stage?

I most certainly hope not!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I most certainly hope not!

So do I - and this is all pure conjecture. But, for example, a study score of the Second Symphony costs about half the price of that of the "Third". If the hire costs are similarly proportionate, and I were the Conductor/Librarian/Financial Manager of a cash-strapped Orchestra, I'd probably say "Let's do the Second, instead".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

There is an issue here, in that no royalties are payable on Elgar's regular works. It's quite different in the cases of this work, P & C 6, Soliloquy, the Piano Concerto, and orchestrations such as The Crown of India (other than the Suite) and the Organ Sonata transcription.

Musicians and publishers are not charities.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There is an issue here, in that no royalties are payable on Elgar's regular works. It's quite different in the cases of this work, P & C 6, Soliloquy, the Piano Concerto, and orchestrations such as The Crown of India (other than the Suite) and the Organ Sonata transcription.

Musicians and publishers are not charities.

No, indeed. But the recent "fading" to which Barbi referred in the OP may have nothing to do with the work's popularity with audiences and performers.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

And, of course, at the moment no royalties are being paid to Mr Payne (or B&H) from performances of the work.

[ARBurton]

No. I was also there and the first half of the programme was a piece by Turnage (whose title I've now forgotten) and then Thibaudet as soloist in Rachmaninoff's Fourth Piano Concerto.

Spot of confusion. The Proms premiere was on 13th August 1998 with first half featuring Ravel mother Goose and Mozart 17th piano concerto with Howard Shelley, according to the BBC proms archive. It was this which was televised - I`m sure!

[Serial_Apologist]

And, of course, at the moment no royalties are being paid to Mr Payne (or B&H) from performances of the work.

Well then I won't be trying to play it from memory on the piano outside Herne Hill railway station then!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Spot of confusion. The Proms premiere was on 13th August 1998 with first half featuring Ravel mother Goose and Mozart 17th piano concerto with Howard Shelley, according to the BBC proms archive. It was this which was televised - I'm sure!

You's right - and you can watch it again if you go back to post #73.

[Pabmusic]

No, indeed. But the recent "fading" to which Barbi referred in the OP may have nothing to do with the work's popularity with audiences and performers.

I am not an expert in this, but I believe that, where the composer has been dead more than 70 years, but a piece is published for the first time, that publication holds copyright for 25 years. The Elgar/Payne is more complicated because of Payne, but if he were regarded as an editor and not a composer, that might still apply - I believe it does with other edited stuff. If this is anything like so, we might expect a resurgence around the 25-year mark (that is, if fees are causing a problem). Presumably that would be about 2022-2023.

[Barbirollians]

I am not an expert in this, but I believe that, where the composer has been dead more than 70 years, but a piece is published for the first time, that publication holds copyright for 25 years. The Elgar/Payne is more complicated because of Payne, but if he were regarded as an editor and not a composer, that might still apply - I believe it does with other edited stuff. If this is anything like so, we might expect a resurgence around the 25-year mark (that is, if fees are causing a problem).

Indeed as Hyperion found to their cost.