Tunes for Tyrants with Suzy Klein...

[ardcarp]

I think Orff probably saw his work as an educator as a major part of his life work:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orff_Schulwerk

His views on music for children seem innovative...and are still probably on the progressive wing of educational philosophy.

[Lat-Literal]

I quite enjoyed the most recent episode. Very informative on Shostakovich, Prokofiev and Strauss - and I was a bit surprised by Klein's presentation. Maybe I have underestimated her in the past. It was more serious and less trendy than I expected while also being clear and accessible. On Orff, I dunno. I have read the comments on this thread. Perhaps it is right that Old Spice should not have had the last say but I'm also minded of certain band names and accompanying art work - New Order, Joy Division etc. After an initial backlash, the cool declared that there was nothing to frighten the horses here and it is that which has stuck. Perhaps cultural reappropriation can be more easily achieved in pop culture? Mind you, I put that question forward tentatively - I tend to frown on that sort of thing myself and think it rather dangerous, especially in today's climates so far removed from 1978-1982.

[Richard Tarleton]

Well, I'm a bit flabbergasted by SK's dismissal of Orff's Carmina Burana as bombastic, fascist, etc etc.
To me it's always been a highly original piece (and Orff was surely a one-trick pony) based partly on the ostinato principle which underlay his educational work. The text, bawdy and irreverent poems written by medieval monks, hardly seems the stuff of Nazi propaganda. And it's great fun to perform and [despite being grossly over-used in films, ads, etc] to listen to.

I've just been reading on Wiki about Orff's semi-detached relationship with the regime in 1930s Germany. How composers ducked and weaved in totalitarian regimes is, I suppose, what the programme is about, but SK let Dmitri and Sergei get off rather lightly compared to her summary treatment of Carl.

Thank you for this ardcarp. Strauss too (though I thought her assessment pretty fair, of a composer I love). I have not looked into this too deeply, but I don't think she succeeded in telling us why it (or he) is bad (other than by association), merely that she dislikes it (and him). My favourite bit was always that bit which used to be the theme music to BBC's Timewatch - In Trutina, no. 21.

I wondered idly if Suzy's interviewee would have got the Monty Python reference in her question.

But otherwise very good. what a beautiful house (and place) Strauss lived in, and a nice interview with his grandson.

[pastoralguy]

Perhaps what we should take from this episode is Thank God we don't have to make those choices. I've often wondered how I would have behaved had I been an ordinary person living in Nazi Germany.

[Stanfordian]

Perhaps what we should take from this episode is Thank God we don't have to make those choices. I've often wondered how I would have behaved had I been an ordinary person living in Nazi Germany.

Hiya PG,

I commend to you the Victor Klemperer's diaries which he kept up throughout the Nazi era, provides an exceptional account of day-to-day life under the tyranny of the Third Reich. As a Jew just having these diaries would have resulted in his murder!

[Stanfordian]

Well, I'm a bit flabbergasted by SK's dismissal of Orff's Carmina Burana as bombastic, fascist, etc etc.
To me it's always been a highly original piece (and Orff was surely a one-trick pony) based partly on the ostinato principle which underlay his educational work. The text, bawdy and irreverent poems written by medieval monks, hardly seems the stuff of Nazi propaganda. And it's great fun to perform and [despite being grossly over-used in films, ads, etc] to listen to.

I've just been reading on Wiki about Orff's semi-detached relationship with the regime in 1930s Germany. How composers ducked and weaved in totalitarian regimes is, I suppose, what the programme is about, but SK let Dmitri and Sergei get off rather lightly compared to her summary treatment of Carl.

Hiya ardcarp,

Away from the dynamic of the time they were written I am comfortable hearing all works that the National Socialists promoted in Germany such as those by Wagner, Liszt, Bruckner, Pfitzner, Orf, Richard Strauss etc.

[kernelbogey]

Nobody can prove that Carmina Burana is 100% a good piece, musically or morally, or that it's a bad piece (De gustibus etc).

But SK's attitude to it is one that's been pretty widely and vociferously aired on these boards in the past, almost as if it's a plain piece of Nazi propaganda. [....]

I unfortunately saw less than half - the latter part - of the programme. But IIRC, in her piece to camera about Carmina Burana, Suzy made a point of saying her view of the music was personal. In that respect it seems to me similar to the views of those who cannot tolerate Wagner's music because of their knowledge of his views and in particular his anti-semitism.

I would not choose to listen to Carmina Burana, as it seems to me to carry the taint of the Nazi years. It's a matter of personal taste, I suggest.

[kernelbogey]

Having missed most of the section of the programme which dealt with Shostakovich, I caught only a few of Suzy's remarks about the ambiguity in his music. I have never taken to the symphonies; a couple of my posts to that effect in the past did not elicit responses from boarders. Is the key to 'getting' Shostakovich (which I don't) an understanding of this ambiguity? I would welcome responses, in the context of SK's ideas.

[Conchis]

I unfortunately saw less than half - the latter part - of the programme. But IIRC, in her piece to camera about Carmina Burana, Suzy made a point of saying her view of the music was personal. In that respect it seems to me similar to the views of those who cannot tolerate Wagner's music because of their knowledge of his views and in particular his anti-semitism.

I would not choose to listen to Carmina Burana, as it seems to me to carry the taint of the Nazi years. It's a matter of personal taste, I suggest.

Carmina Burana carries no taint. Like most works of art, it is blameless.

Its creator might be another matter, though. The (very good) BBC4 doc on him a while back painted a convincing picture of a man who was a self-acknowledged moral coward. Though before we point the finger, we might ask ourselves how brave we ourselves would have been in Nazi Germany?

[kernelbogey]

Carmina Burana carries no taint. Like most works of art, it is blameless[....]

In principle agree.

However, I used 'taint' in the context of personal opinion - my own or others'.

I am exceedingly fond of Wagner's music and in paticular the Ring. But I can never listen to (or watch) Siegfried without thinking of Naziism. That's wholly personal, and it taints the work for me. (Strictly speaking, I suppose I should say that I taint the music.)

[LMcD]

Having missed most of the section of the programme which dealt with Shostakovich, I caught only a few of Suzy's remarks about the ambiguity in his music. I have never taken to the symphonies; a couple of my posts to that effect in the past did not elicit responses from boarders. Is the key to 'getting' Shostakovich (which I don't) an understanding of this ambiguity? I would welcome responses, in the context of SK's ideas.

May I suggest you start with the 5th? I find the last movement particularly thrilling whenever I hear it.

[Stanfordian]

I unfortunately saw less than half - the latter part - of the programme. But IIRC, in her piece to camera about Carmina Burana, Suzy made a point of saying her view of the music was personal. In that respect it seems to me similar to the views of those who cannot tolerate Wagner's music because of their knowledge of his views and in particular his anti-semitism.

I would not choose to listen to Carmina Burana, as it seems to me to carry the taint of the Nazi years. It's a matter of personal taste, I suggest.

Hiya Kernelbogey,

I accept your viewpoint but in my view not listening to a piece of music isn't going to change anything. I admire Barenboim greatly for introducing Wagner's music to Israel in 2001 against the informal ban in the country when it would have been easier to have say back and done nothing.

[pastoralguy]

Hiya PG,

I commend to you the Victor Klemperer's diaries which he kept up throughout the Nazi era, provides an exceptional account of day-to-day life under the tyranny of the Third Reich. As a Jew just having these diaries would have resulted in his murder!

Many thanks, Stan. I've just reserved the three volumes from our local library.

[Stanfordian]

Many thanks, Stan. I've just reserved the three volumes from our local library.

Libraries, have they not all shut? Many have round my area! Sold off many of the reference books.

[pastoralguy]

Libraries, have they not all shut? Many have round my area! Sold off many of the reference books.

We're very lucky in Edinburgh. Our library service remains largely intact with a very efficient ordering service whereby one can put requests in online and they'll be delivered to the library of your choice. We also have a very good music library that has every work in both parts and full scores. The cd stock is pretty good too with many big box sets available that would probably be out of reach for many listeners. (I.e., the Period Instrument Haydn cycle, Brendels complete Beethoven sonata and many opera sets).

I think there would be rioting in the streets in Scotland if a council tried to close libraries since it's very much ingrained in The Scottish psyche due to the philanthropic nature of Andrew Carnegie, (Of Carnegie Hall fame), who funded the library service here. He paid for many library buildings to be created and is still a much recognised name here.

And I hate to rub it in, but we have free access to downloading magazines, including BBC Music!, talking books and the Naxos online music service.