Tunes for Tyrants with Suzy Klein...

[Braunschlag]

You could try this, if you haven't already. You need 18 Euros, bags of energy, and finely honed organisational skills !!

https://www.berlin.de/en/events/2091...useums.en.html

Thanks for that tip. I’m off to Berlin with my daughter in a week or so. Staying in the Scheuneviertal area (Torstraße). I’ve tracked down a few decent looking old kniepe bars, any recommendations welcome. Mostly going to do the DDR stuff but open to any suggestions as it’s our first time.
I’ve done Bayern countless times so ‘up the t’north’ was a new option.
This should be in the Travel thread but it seemed more relevant here.
Prost!

[Barbirollians]

I agree that the part on the Horst Wessel Song was good - just a bit of shame that the seriousness with which that was approached was not reflected in more of the programme .

[Stanfordian]

Thanks for that tip. I’m off to Berlin with my daughter in a week or so. Staying in the Scheuneviertal area (Torstraße). I’ve tracked down a few decent looking old kniepe bars, any recommendations welcome. Mostly going to do the DDR stuff but open to any suggestions as it’s our first time.
I’ve done Bayern countless times so ‘up the t’north’ was a new option.
This should be in the Travel thread but it seemed more relevant here.
Prost!

Hiya Braunschlag,

In Berlin I can highly recommended a visit to the 'Stasi Museum'. Covert cameras as big as suitcases etc!

[Braunschlag]

Hiya Braunschlag,

In Berlin I can highly recommended a visit to the 'Stasi Museum'. Covert cameras as big as suitcases etc!

That’s right at the top of my list, good to hear it’s recommended. Maybe the prison at Hohenschoehausen as well, for a more sober reflection.

[teamsaint]

That’s right at the top of my list, good to hear it’s recommended. Maybe the prison at Hohenschoehausen as well, for a more sober reflection.

We really enjoyed the Museum of Decorative Arts, well worth a visit. If the weather is good Holzmarkt down near the East Side Wall Gallery is excellent.A sort of eco complex of little eateries and bars right by the river, an excellent place to chill out. And the Wall Gallery is impressive and lively.
You aren't going to be short of something to do, though.We also really enjoyed a river trip on our last visit.
AND you have to get yourself to Dussmann 's if you are in the mood for music buying.

Prost !

[pastoralguy]

Looking forward to part two tonite.

Hope she wears the hat again!

[Serial_Apologist]

Looking forward to part two tonite.

Hope she wears the hat again!

Hmmm...

[Barbirollians]

i thought the second episode was very good and I agreed with every word about Carmina Burana !

[ardcarp]

Well, I'm a bit flabbergasted by SK's dismissal of Orff's Carmina Burana as bombastic, fascist, etc etc.
To me it's always been a highly original piece (and Orff was surely a one-trick pony) based partly on the ostinato principle which underlay his educational work. The text, bawdy and irreverent poems written by medieval monks, hardly seems the stuff of Nazi propaganda. And it's great fun to perform and [despite being grossly over-used in films, ads, etc] to listen to.

I've just been reading on Wiki about Orff's semi-detached relationship with the regime in 1930s Germany. How composers ducked and weaved in totalitarian regimes is, I suppose, what the programme is about, but SK let Dmitri and Sergei get off rather lightly compared to her summary treatment of Carl.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Well, I'm a bit flabbergasted by SK's dismissal of Orff's Carmina Burana as bombastic, fascist, etc etc.
To me it's always been a highly original piece (and Orff was surely a one-trick pony) based partly on the ostinato principle which underlay in his educational work. The text, bawdy and irreverent poems written by medieval monks, hardly seems the stuff of Nazi propaganda.

Nobody can prove that Carmina Burana is 100% a good piece, musically or morally, or that it's a bad piece (De gustibus etc).

But SK's attitude to it is one that's been pretty widely and vociferously aired on these boards in the past, almost as if it's a plain piece of Nazi propaganda. Though how its framing text about the wheel of fortune, fate striking down the strong man and so on, could ever have gone down well with the party - or been thought likely to appeal - completely baffles me!

[Braunschlag]

Well, I'm a bit flabbergasted by SK's dismissal of Orff's Carmina Burana as bombastic, fascist, etc etc.
To me it's always been a highly original piece (and Orff was surely a one-trick pony) based partly on the ostinato principle which underlay his educational work. The text, bawdy and irreverent poems written by medieval monks, hardly seems the stuff of Nazi propaganda. And it's great fun to perform and [despite being grossly over-used in films, ads, etc] to listen to.

I've just been reading on Wiki about Orff's semi-detached relationship with the regime in 1930s Germany. How composers ducked and weaved in totalitarian regimes is, I suppose, what the programme is about, but SK let Dmitri and Sergei got off rather lightly compared to her summary treatment of Carl.

I was waiting for some brave soul to stick up for Carmina, thankfully I’m not the only one. It might well be brash, vulgar and tasteless but that can be levelled at quite a few composers. One trick pony he probably is but I’ve played in Carmina, Catulli (and that’s nowhere near as good/bad) and Les Noces, which, to my simple mind was just as bawdy and raw as CB.
SK did a fine job tonight, I thought it was balanced and informative without resurrecting old ghosts until her declaration about CB (interestingly, she steered clear of Orff’s political leanings/naievety).
I’m a Carmina fan, it seems good to let ones hair down now and again and enjoy the sheer shallowness of it all. :)

[Pabmusic]

Nobody can prove that Carmina Burana is 100% a good piece, musically or morally, or that it's a bad piece (De gustibus etc).

But SK's attitude to it is one that's been pretty widely and vociferously aired on these boards in the past, almost as if it's a plain piece of Nazi propaganda. Though how its framing text about the wheel of fortune, fate striking down the strong man and so on, could ever have gone down well with the party - or been thought likely to appeal - completely baffles me!

This is quite good. Orff was (I suspect) a 20th-century Vicar of Bray.

http://holocaustmusic.ort.org/politics-and-propaganda/third-reich/orff-carl/

[Barbirollians]

I was waiting for some brave soul to stick up for Carmina, thankfully I’m not the only one. It might well be brash, vulgar and tasteless but that can be levelled at quite a few composers. One trick pony he probably is but I’ve played in Carmina, Catulli (and that’s nowhere near as good/bad) and Les Noces, which, to my simple mind was just as bawdy and raw as CB.
SK did a fine job tonight, I thought it was balanced and informative without resurrecting old ghosts until her declaration about CB (interestingly, she steered clear of Orff’s political leanings/naievety).
I’m a Carmina fan, it seems good to let ones hair down now and again and enjoy the sheer shallowness of it all. :)

I have always disliked it intensely but simply because I could not stand it . It was used as musical propaganda it seems to advance German youth culture and of course Orff's reputation has been further damaged by his failure to come to the aid of his friend Huber but also his pretence that he was a member of the White Rose movement .

I remember a record sleeve - I think it was the HMV re-release of the Fruhbeck de Burgos version that suggested jackboots can be heard in its ostinatos. Fanciful perhaps but I have always heard them since .

I think her point is fair .

[ardcarp]

I think her point is fair

I don't think it was 'fair' in the sense that C-B was given a summary execution. 'Fair' would include background, pros and cons. Anyway I still think it's fun May I lighten the mood with an anecdote? Many amateur performances cannot afford the full orchestral requirements, particularly not in the kitchen department. The conductor of one such performance rang me up to ask if I'd got a celesta. Why he asked me I cannot imagine...but I did have (and still do) a thing called a Dulcitone, a sort of small box with a keyboard on top and chimes hit by hammers inside. "That'll do", he said, "Can you come and play it next Saturday?" Well, I did and it was FUN. I even joined in a bit of chorus here and there....blissfully unaware of any connections with The Third Reich..

[LeMartinPecheur]

This is quite good. Orff was (I suspect) a 20th-century Vicar of Bray.

http://holocaustmusic.ort.org/politi...ich/orff-carl/

Thanks for that Pabs. Liking Carmina Burana, and a few other Orff works to a lesser extent, doesn't mean that I'd rush to invite him over for dinner!

Barbs: if we link the music closely with the life-story don't we simply bump into the same problem that SK seemed to deal with pretty fairly in relation to Wagner? We may not like the man, his views or his influence but that doesn't (needn't) stop us liking the music. If it does it does, but it doesn't have to. In which case it seems 'cleaner' to stop at not liking the music rather than seeking to reinforce that judgment by reference to the composer's moral failings.