Tunes for Tyrants with Suzy Klein...

[gurnemanz]

Reactions:

V. Klemperer - compelling read. As a linguist, he also had a lot of insights into the Nazis' perversion of the German language.

Carmina Burana - I've always enjoyed it for what it is. I saw it staged a long time ago (at Nürnberg Opera House funnily enough). It lends itself quite well: the blackened swan about to be eaten, lots of dancing and springtime frolicking, the wheel of fortune, drinking scenes etc. Our choir did it a few years ago and that was great fun and one of our most successful concerts. Having spent many happy hours on my undergraduate German course getting to grips with Middle High German, it was quite satisfying many years later to actually get around to singing that language.

Re old Nazis: my mother-in law (a delightful and harmless lady) told us she had been a totally convinced member of the Bund deutscher Mädel in the 30s (much to the consternation of her liberal-minded parents).

[Petrushka]

I listen to Carmina Burana every now and then and enjoy it (the first time was that famous LSO/Previn Prom in 1974) but surely nowadays we are too far away in time for any squeamishness regarding the alleged Nazi influence? In listening I do so on two levels, enjoying the jolly romp but also acknowledging the historical perspective every bit as much as I do with Shostakovich.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I've always greatly enjoyed Carmina Burana since the surfboarding aftershave ad - it goes on a bit, but I much prefer it to a lot of other choral works; and In truitina is a particular favourite. (And I've sung in it in the Albert Hall.)


There are a lot of issues that SK brought up (and several that she didn't - such as the case of Karl Amadeus Hartmann) which need airing and discussing. But the very nature of such a superficial presentation of these issues - hinged as it was on the opening declaration that Music "bypasses language and reason and aims directly for our souls" - meant that they could not be discussed in anything but the most trivial, emotive manner. By ignoring the score of the Shostakovich Fifth and just offering vague descriptions of "pounding" Music, the ambiguity of the optimism/pessimism/defiance conclusion was left hanging in the air - and her sudden turning on CB with nothing but an equally feeble description of the opening chorus, meant that she couldn't justify her assessment of it as "empty" (and yet, at the same time, "disturbing").

It wasn't Music that "bypassed language and reason" it was Nazism and Stalinism, both of which also referred to Music with the same vague clichés about "the soul" that were used throughout the programme. Unless and until programmes which empower listeners to understand the concrete material workings of Music become standard fare, the ways in which it can be abused and exploited cannot be adequately discussed - as surely it needs to be if that abuse and exploitation is not to be repeated.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Some lovely archive film of Prokofiev and Strauss, though - and the opening juxtaposing of images of Mahler conducting and Hitler ranting were very cunning.

[ardcarp]

There are a lot of issues that SK brought up (and several that she didn't - such as the case of Karl Amadeus Hartmann) which need airing and discussing. But the very nature of such a superficial presentation of these issues - hinged as it was on the opening declaration that Music "bypasses language and reason and aims directly for our souls" - meant that they could not be discussed in anything but the most trivial, emotive manner. By ignoring the score of the Shostakovich Fifth and just offering vague descriptions of "pounding" Music, the ambiguity of the optimism/pessimism/defiance conclusion was left hanging in the air - and her sudden turning on CB with nothing but an equally feeble description of the opening chorus, meant that she couldn't justify her assessment of it as "empty" (and yet, at the same time, "disturbing").

It wasn't Music that "bypassed language and reason" it was Nazism and Stalinism, both of which also referred to Music with the same vague clichés about "the soul" that were used throughout the programme. Unless and until programmes which empower listeners to understand the concrete material workings of Music become standard fare, the ways in which it can be abused and exploited cannot be adequately discussed - as surely it needs to be if that abuse and exploitation is not to be repeated.

[Petrushka]

Some lovely archive film of Prokofiev and Strauss, though - and the opening juxtaposing of images of Mahler conducting and Hitler ranting were very cunning.

It is thought possible (biographers differ) that Hitler saw Mahler conduct Wagner at the Vienna State Opera in 1907. AH mentions that he attended in a letter to his friend August Kubizek but it's not known for sure whether Mahler or Weingartner was the conductor. If it was Mahler then the irony becomes unbearable.

[pastoralguy]

She did wear the hat again!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It is thought possible (biographers differ) that Hitler saw Mahler conduct Wagner at the Vienna State Opera in 1907. AH mentions that he attended in a letter to his friend August Kubizek but it's not known for sure whether Mahler or Weingartner was the conductor. If it was Mahler then the irony becomes unbearable.

I thought it wasn't certain - but SK stated that it was Mahler, so I thought that there must have been some more recent research showing this.

[ardcarp]

Calling it "empty notes" was a bit rich considering (for example) how much empty Glass and Reich she has played on her programs over the years

Snap. I had exactly the same thoughts! Orff does embrace a sort of minimalism, in the sense of much repeated material. But worlds away.

[Petrushka]

I thought it wasn't certain - but SK stated that it was Mahler, so I thought that there must have been some more recent research showing this.

I haven't actually seen the programme yet so wasn't aware that this was mentioned. I'll try and find time to plough through the literature again but memory is that it hinges on a postcard sent by Hitler to August Kubizek in which he mentions having seen Tristan and The Flying Dutchman at the Vienna Court Opera (as it then was, of course). I think that the postcard is dated May 21 1907.

I don't know whether it was mentioned, but it is also thought (not sure of the evidence) that AH saw Bruno Walter conduct the VPO in Bruckner 4 at around the same time.

The best books on this particular topic are 'Hitler's Vienna' by Brigitte Hamann and 'Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics' by Frederic Spotts, both excellent, and I need to read both again.

[kernelbogey]

[...] It wasn't Music that "bypassed language and reason" it was Nazism and Stalinism, both of which also referred to Music with the same vague clichés about "the soul" that were used throughout the programme. Unless and until programmes which empower listeners to understand the concrete material workings of Music become standard fare, the ways in which it can be abused and exploited cannot be adequately discussed - as surely it needs to be if that abuse and exploitation is not to be repeated.

Sadly, producers of tv programmes are driven by the need for images to accompany the words, however well written and delivered. (Including,in the case of the part of SK's programme I saw, random images of falling snow...!)

Radio does the kind of programme which Ferney desires so much better*.

(The current series on Vietnam is of excellent quality, but there the choice of still and moving images provides a rich substance to the films which can accommodate commentary, original soundtrack, interview and images compellingly. I've yet to witness a tv programme about music that can match that quality.)

*Edit: For example, John Tusa's excellent Sunday Feature on opera in Germany - rich in sound-pictures, with an intelligent script.

[kernelbogey]

Off topic, though related. I would hope someone knows of this:

The Strausses had one son, Franz, in 1897. Franz married Alice von Grab-Hermannswörth, daughter of a Jewish industrialist, in a Roman Catholic ceremony in 1924. - Wikipedia, on R Strauss

Some years ago, Charle Mackerras, in an interview, described Richard Strauss introducing his son and daughter-in-law to Hitler. Knowing that Alice was Jewish, Hitler reportedly said to her - and I cannot remember the crucial verb here - Wir haben Sie aufgexxxxx - with the meaning of something like promoted you out of Jewishness.

I would be pleased if anyone knows the source of Mackerras's anecdote.

[Barbirollians]

Philip Glass and Steve Reich's music was not on the other hand used to fire up the Hitler Youth.

The point she made is the association of the music as being composed during and taken up by that regime . I am struggling after a long day to think of any other piece composed during the Nazi regime in Germany or Austria that retains any such popularity .

PS I doubt Capriccio or Daphne come near !

[kernelbogey]

May I suggest you start with the 5th? I find the last movement particularly thrilling whenever I hear it.

Yes, I believe that I know it. Any suggestions for a complete set of Shostakovich symphonies - preferably at bargain price? I have a notion to try again....

[Barbirollians]

Yes, I believe that I know it. Any suggestions for a complete set of Shostakovich symphonies - preferably at bargain price? I have a notion to try again....

Barshai on Brilliant Classics perhaps