Ballet

[Pulcinella]

And there's the problem of the thud of feet hitting stage with the resulting extraneous percussion added to the score.

Not at all a problem in The rite of spring, dare I suggest?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

No, I don't think you're missing the point, but your observations and own experience seem to reinforce my bewilderment: why the music is generally deemed to be of such lower importance never ceases to amaze me!

It goes back over a hundred years - Fokine referred to "Stravinsky's Music for my ballet, The Firebird."

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Not at all a problem in The rite of spring, dare I suggest?

Well - given the composer's contempt for how Nijinsky's choreography synchronised with the Music, rather than (as Stravinsky wanted) in counterpoint with it, I did wonder if the "extra percussion" was expected (rather than my "extraneous") - but answering the scores accents, rather than reinforcing them?!

[Pianorak]

L'Oiseau de feu, Petrouhka, Le Sacre du Printemps, Danses Concertantes, Agon, were all specifically written for ballet. Its a pity you find them not very engaging.

If you have seen the ballets you cite, you might have noticed that the music does its job rather well.

Ah - hmm, I dropped a clanger there. How could I forget those. And I don't dispute the fact that Minkus and Adam's music is absolutely right for the job.

[Quarky]

No, I don't think you're missing the point, but your observations and own experience seem to reinforce my bewilderment: why the music is generally deemed to be of such lower importance never ceases to amaze me!

Possibly a group of classical musicians is the worst possible audience for a Ballet!

But in general there is a lot more going on in the dance, during a perfomance, than in the music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fKxzQ8ARTQ

[Pulcinella]

Possibly a group of classical musicians is the worst possible audience for a Ballet!

But in general there is a lot more going on in the dance, during a perfomance, than in the music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fKxzQ8ARTQ

Yes, but the music is integral to what's going on, surely, regardless of the skill of the dancers (impressive!) and the on-stage action.
All I was suggesting is that it should more generally be identified.

And after all, here we are on a thread under the 'Talking about music' heading.

[Alain Maréchal]

[QUOTE=Pulcinella;642019
All I was suggesting is that it should more generally be identified.
[/QUOTE]

I would agree with you there. It would be similar to publicising a performance of "a symphony by Haydn".

[Stanley Stewart]

Serendipity at work as I was searching for a theatre programme earlier today!
Delighted to come across a slim progamme in a booklet which turned out to be my intro
to classical ballet on 24th August 1946. A sponsored tour of The Covent Garden Opera Trust/
The Arts Council of Gt Britain by The Sadler's Wells Ballet under the direction of Ninette de Valois. The main attraction for this 15 year old was Act II of Le Lac Des Cygnes - the music
of Tchaikovsky and Hamlet, a ballet in one scene; and Symphonic Variations by Cesar Franck -
who he, I queried at the library! An attractive cast included Margot Fonteyn, Michael Somes and Moira Shearer - two years before stardom in The Red Shoes. Decor and costumes by Sophie Fedorovitch - a stimulating backcloth of an abstract line drawing which I still "see" at the mention of the ballet. The musical appeal of Swan Lake won hands-down, and, of course, only available to me on 78rpm recordings when pocket money permitted.
But something else nagged me about the cyclorama and Frederick Ashton's production,
a subtext which indicated change, perhaps early indication of what later emerged as contemporary dance which preoccupied me in the 70s, cheek-by-jowl with classical ballet at Covent Garden, in the era of Fonteyn and Nureyev - my first year in London in the late 50s was as Asst. to the Manager of Hansom Books, :Plays & Players, Films & Filming, Dance and Dancers,
Books & Bookmen, Records & Recording - a gofer in every respect but it gave me regular
contact with the Press Office at Covent Garden and privilege in obtaining tickets for the sold out, Fonteyn/Nureyev appearances. A stunning era but my preference for a 'world elsewhere' in contemporary dance, matched by the insight and experience of Laban Notation at the RADA - complex and seductive - also fired my accrued experience as an actor in heavyweight roles -
never, ever, as a potential dancer, I assure you.

How well I recall the age of Ballet, USA, with regular seasons in the West End annually,
London Contemporary Dance Theatre at the Drill Hall, (opposite Euston Station), perhaps,
best of all. the arrival of the Maurice Bejart, Ballet of the 20th Century, from Belgium,
to perform regular seasons at the London Coliseum - the Coli as we knew it - really set London on fire with riveting productions of, say. The Rite of Spring which I've never seen matched.
Bejart's partner, Jorge Donn was the balletic equivalent of Marlon Brando! Truly great evenings.

[Lat-Literal]

Interesting observations, all.

I especially note the several references to Rameau.

The emphasis in the programme was on Tchaikovsky but my impression across several years on YT is that there is a very large amount of classical music that has "Ballet" in its title and from a wide range of composers. That question about when some music is first used for ballet is an interesting one because one wonders about the extent to which composers could have any comprehension of ballet at all. It was pointed out that the ballet music of Tchaikovsky is not easily danced to. The difficulty may have enhanced the art form, ie it was set a challenge but is that the case, for example, with modern music that has been designed for it? Re "does the music matter at all?", my initial reaction was to think that was a bit of a daft question but then I recalled a woman I knew in my teens who had run a ballet school decades earlier and how she never to my recollection ever mentioned music or put on any records at home. Surely, though, ballet as purely dance is not dance but theatrical gymnastics while opera as music without costume and drama would merely be a concert?

[Quarky]

Re "does the music matter at all?", my initial reaction was to think that was a bit of a daft question but then I recalled a woman I knew in my teens who had run a ballet school decades earlier and how she never to my recollection ever mentioned music or put on any records at home. Surely, though, ballet as purely dance is not dance but theatrical gymnastics while opera as music without costume and drama would merely be a concert?

Classical Ballet as I understand it was developed mainly in the French Courts in the 17th Century. But it is only one form of dance. There are various forms of modern dance developed in the 20th Century, not to mention Jazz dance. These more modern forms of dance seem quite happy with Rock music as a base for the performance.

The music matters, but not all that much. Ballet is best left for dance enthusiasts IMV, and classical ballet is best left with the music originally written for it. It seems to be doing nicely in the 21st century, and I doubt there is much scope for an update.

[MrGongGong]

And there's the problem of the thud of feet hitting stage with the resulting extraneous percussion added to the score.

I like that in the same way that I like the string squeaks you hear when classical guitarists play.
To my ears, it's like a second piece of music being played simultaneously through the "necessary actions" of jumping or moving the fingers.
But maybe that's just the effect of listening to Cage and Ives?

Ballet is always a bit short and "bitty" for my taste. Even The Rite of Spring which in the mind is a huge piece isn't very long but leaping about is exhausting.

[Quarky]

........Merce Cunningham??

Chance??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq6Sp8R4KfU

[Richard Tarleton]

I like that in the same way that I like the string squeaks you hear when classical guitarists play.

Julian Bream used to remark on how John Williams managed to eliminate this by skilful lifting and movement of fingers. Nowadays some people (including amateur hackers like me) use the highly polished strings which considerably reduce this.

To my ears, it's like a second piece of music being played simultaneously through the "necessary actions" of jumping or moving the fingers.

I'd include clattery keys on woodwind instruments here - most recently I thought this sitting near a great clarinettist. Being further away helps. Same with ballet - I've been rarely, but the effect of scuffly feet much less in ROH than Snape Maltings.

Ballet is always a bit short and "bitty" for my taste. Even The Rite of Spring which in the mind is a huge piece isn't very long but leaping about is exhausting.

[Serial_Apologist]

leaping about is exhausting.

Exhausting to watch as well!

[MrGongGong]

Exhausting to watch as well!

I used to make soundtracks for a Butoh dancer, she would take about 30 minutes to move from one side of the stage to the other.
Perfect for long drones and slow changes.