Five Pieces you would be happy to never hear again

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

'All that F major'! - perhaps we should start a new thread on keys we simply despise!

I didn't read pasto's comment as reflecting his opinion of the key itself, Bella Of all the Beethoven Symphonies, it is the least interesting in its use of Tonality - or, perhaps better, it is interesting from its comparatively limited use of Tonality. Possibly why he returned to the key after only four years for his next-but-one Symphony - the only time he "re-used" a Tonality in any of the Nine. (Of course, this wouldn't've been true if he'd lived to complete the Tenth Symphony in Eb Major; but then, all sorts of things we take for granted now wouldn't be the case if he'd finished the Tenth!)

[cloughie]

Maybe it's my lack of musical education but I don't get this key thing. I can understand that it may be necessary to accommodate the range of certain instruments but why should Bb major or F major be better or worse than any other. For example when I sing a song I will pitch it to suit my voice and indeed Vaughan Williams in his Songs of Travel did two versions - a baritone version which I think was the original and a tenor version one third above. Both sound 'right' to me. I have also transposed Jaques Brel's 'If you go away' a third up from the original to avoid loss of power in the lower notes.

[ahinton]

I don't think so. The wirelesses I remember, like the one we had in our village school, had all sorts of valves, funny noises - and wires coming out of it.

Indeed, so one might wonder why the term was coined for them - but then given that, in UK, private schools are called "public schools", perhaps this isn't so surprising after all...

[ahinton]

I didn't read pasto's comment as reflecting his opinion of the key itself, Bella Of all the Beethoven Symphonies, it is the least interesting in its use of Tonality - or, perhaps better, it is interesting from its comparatively limited use of Tonality. Possibly why he returned to the key after only four years for his next-but-one Symphony - the only time he "re-used" a Tonality in any of the Nine. (Of course, this wouldn't've been true if he'd lived to complete the Tenth Symphony in Eb Major; but then, all sorts of things we take for granted now wouldn't be the case if he'd finished the Tenth!)

Somewhat off-topic, I know, but it's interesting that one can speak to most musicians or listeners of the B minor Mass, the C# minor Quartet and the F minor Ballade without the need to mention the composers' names!...

[Dave2002]

That's easy: B Flat major.

Knocks out Beethoven symphony 4, and Mozart's Gran Partita then!
Also Haydn Symphony 102. Schubert D960 sonata and Schumann Symphony 1, Brahms 2nd Piano concerto and a string sextet.

Any others?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Maybe it's my lack of musical education but I don't get this key thing. I can understand that it may be necessary to accommodate the range of certain instruments but why should Bb major or F major be better or worse than any other.

Nor I, cloughie, nor I. As I don't have "perfect pitch", it's the relationships within a work that gets me going. And I'm only going to put a toe in the water of the ocean that is how composers' ideas of "B minor" (for example) were different from instruments today tuned to A = 440 (for example).

[ahinton]

Knocks out Beethoven symphony 4, and Mozart's Gran Partita then!
Also Haydn Symphony 102. Schubert D960 sonata and Schumann Symphony 1, Brahms 2nd Piano concert and a string sextet.

Any others?

Well, two hardly insignificant piano trios - the Archduke and Schubert's first one - for starters - and let's not forget the early and long suppressed symphonies in that key by Michael Tippett and Brian Ferneyhough of which the former - but certainly not the latter(!) - is about to surface.

Oh, and Chausson's Symphony, too...

[ahinton]

I'm only going to put a toe in the water of the ocean that is how composers' ideas of "B minor" (for example) were different from instruments today tuned to A = 440 (for example).

Wise not to take the full plunge, to be sure(!) - although my sole excuse (such as it is) for mentioning this and the other two examples was based upon the fact that I wasn't actually around in the days when they were written!...

[MrGongGong]

Nor I, cloughie, nor I. As I don't have "perfect pitch", it's the relationships within a work that gets me going. And I'm only going to put a toe in the water of the ocean that is how composers' ideas of "B minor" (for example) were different from instruments today tuned to A = 440 (for example).

Spot on there

(or even most European instruments that are now tuned to A=442 )

[vinteuil]

Nor I, cloughie, nor I. As I don't have "perfect pitch", it's the relationships within a work that gets me going. And I'm only going to put a toe in the water of the ocean that is how composers' ideas of "B minor" (for example) were different from instruments today tuned to A = 440 (for example).

... pitch of course has moved up and down wildly from period to period and even from city to city.

Is it not the case, though, that certain keys fit more happily with some instruments than others - flat keys for winds, sharp keys for strings, perhaps - and so in composers' minds certain keys could have instrumental associations...

.

[Ferretfancy]

I was browsing in my local Oxfam the other day and came across a copy of Bernstein's Mass. This must surely be the most embarrassingly awful piece of 20th Century music! Certainly it will be the top of my list for sheer cringe making vulgarity! ( Hides behind sofa )

[Pabmusic]

Apropos keys - however modern tuning may differ from the original, one thing is true; certain keys are harsher or kinder on players because of their instrumental technique. And even more significantly, some keys allow for more open strings, which actually affects the sound. D major and G major were perhaps the favourite 18th century orchestral keys simply because the majority of open strings sounded in the home key. Likewise, A-flat and D-flat - though rarely used then - produced a different sound quality, since almost no open strings came into play.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was browsing in my local Oxfam the other day and came across a copy of Bernstein's Mass. This must surely be the most embarrassingly awful piece of 20th Century music! Certainly it will be the top of my list for sheer cringe making vulgarity! ( Hides behind sofa )

I'd be grateful if you'd get off my foot, Ferretf - I was behind this sofa first!

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't think so. The wirelesses I remember, like the one we had in our village school, had all sorts of valves, funny noises - and wires coming out of it.

The Art Deco one at my nursery school (ca 1948) emitted loud raspberry noises, to my considerable amusement. That must have been the foundation of my sense of humour.

[Serial_Apologist]

I was browsing in my local Oxfam the other day and came across a copy of Bernstein's Mass. This must surely be the most embarrassingly awful piece of 20th Century music! Certainly it will be the top of my list for sheer cringe making vulgarity! ( Hides behind sofa )

The Chichester Psalms are even worse, in my opionion! Still, at least Bernstein managed to compose one great work!!!