Moral Maze - British Places : Better Represented By Classical Music Than Other Forms

[teamsaint]

They would usually tell the viewer something about the formal aspects of the painting, though, no? - in the same way a composer of abstract music often did back in the 1950s, eg "Gruppen".

Yes, I can see that there is a ( possibly) more specific purpose in the case of the " abstract",but the use of language to point towards intention is still the same function , isn't it ?

So what you call something matters, whether it is a piece of music, visual art, novel because it is a powerful symbol of authorial intention.
Over time of course, the significance might change. 1984, for instance.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hmm, yet another problem of semantics in this thread? Does Egdon Heath really not 'exist'?
You may not be able to find it so named on any Ordnance Survey map, but it seems to be well enough defined for the NT to have bought us all a decent slice of it!
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...h-thomas-hardy

I'll see your "hmm" and raise you a "Errr" - Slepe Heath in Dorset, Hardy’s homeland and thought to be an inspiration for Egdon Heath in The Return of the Native.

[doversoul1]

I'm struggling to see the difference between naming music,or giving linguistic clues within music, in order to assist in generating an effect for the listener, to creating a fictitious place in a novel, or film for example. They are both creative processes that use language to point to authorial intention, and the rest is up to us. Giving names to abstract impressionist works of art anybody ?

In the case of a novel, the author needs to build up the place with words, the common tool for direct communication for the author and the readers. Narnia has to be described, or ‘generated’, by the creator in details to get the story going, and the description needs to be kept up throughout the narrative. Whereas with music, all we, the listeners have is a word or a phrase, a label, an indicator. It is left to us to fill in the details if we want to give the work something that can be described or expressed in words. Or we can listen to it as an abstract entity that does not need to be translated into words or solid images beyond its label.

* This does not mean that every reader has the same response. Far from it but that’s another story.

[teamsaint]

In the case of a novel, the author needs to build up the place with words, the common tool for direct communication for the author and the readers. Narnia has to be described, or ‘generated’, by the creator in details to get the story going, and the description needs to be kept up throughout the narrative. Whereas with music, all we, the listeners have is a word or a phrase, a label, an indicator. It is left to us to fill in the details if we want to give the work something that can be described or expressed in words. Or we can listen to it as an abstract entity that does not need to be translated into words beyond its label.

* This does not mean that every reader has the same response. Far from it but that’s another story.

Yes , of course there is a common tool in a novel, but as we discussed earlier, we tend to think about music via the medium of language, so I don't necessarily think there is a great difference.
And in a novel there are gaps for us to fill in, ( before, after, during, around the action), and critical differences in the approach we bring to it. Each example is different. But returning to music for example, if the composer calls something a Mass, and sets the words, its probably pretty difficult to then listen in an entirely abstract way. I'd certainly find that, I think.

[gradus]

Does it have to be 'about' anything? (Forgetting the quip 'about' -- sorry -- the bit relating to a particular time!)
I don't think that you'd imagine it was The Housatonic at Stockbridge, unless there'd been a particularly torrential downpour.
I'm not quite sure what your point is, Richard.
If a composer chooses to give a title to a piece to suggest an association (as a place of inspiration or an attempt at depiction) then so be it. I don't think I'd confuse the bleakness of Egdon Heath with the warmth of a Norfolk Rhapsody, but I'm not sure either piece is 'about' its given title.

Actually, I'm not at all sure what this whole thread is 'about'!
Perhaps we are in the world of semantics.

Probably are, but when pieces derive from region specific folk songs (Norfolk Rhapsody) aren't we getting a bit closer to music identifying place. If one heard the rhapsody and recognised The Captain's Apprentice, nothing will have been said of place but the tune immediately identifies Norfolk.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... if the composer calls something a Mass, and sets the words, its probably pretty difficult to then listen in an entirely abstract way. I'd certainly find that, I think.

It's becoming very clear from Threads like these that this depends on each listener. I have no problem listening to the rhythmic, harmonic, thematic, textural, timbral etc features of a Mass without concerning myself about the words - perhaps even especially with a Mass, where there are so many other settings. I've heard all the Bach Cantatas several times, and know very few of the words - those which I do know the words convince me that they're somewhat repulsive ("My heart swims in blood" - yeuk!). The formal, "abstract" features of these works are what grabs my attention, not how that Music communicates what the words are supposed to communicate.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Probably are, but when pieces derive from region specific folk songs (Norfolk Rhapsody) aren't we getting a bit closer to music identifying place. If one heard the rhapsody and recognised The Captain's Apprentice, nothing will have been said of place but the tune immediately identifies Norfolk.

Only if the listener knows that the tune comes from Norfolk, I would suggest.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I'll see your "hmm" and raise you a "Errr" - Slepe Heath in Dorset, Hardy’s homeland and thought to be an inspiration for Egdon Heath in The Return of the Native.

Ibid: "Brown is careful not to claim that this is definitely or entirely Hardy’s Egdon Heath, Hardy’s sombre and vivid creation that feels like a prison to one of his most beloved characters, Eustacia Vye. As Hardy makes clear in the 1895 preface to The Return of the Native, Egdon was based on “at least a dozen” Dorset heaths."

Ergo, Hardy's Egdon Heath evokes Dorset heathland(s) which existed, and to some degree still exist. QED. (? )

[doversoul1]

Yes , of course there is a common tool in a novel, but as we discussed earlier, we tend to think about music via the medium of language, so I don't necessarily think there is a great difference.
And in a novel there are gaps for us to fill in, ( before, after, during, around the action), and critical differences in the approach we bring to it. Each example is different. But returning to music for example, if the composer calls something a Mass, and sets the words, its probably pretty difficult to then listen in an entirely abstract way. I'd certainly find that, I think.

Ah!! That’s interesting. Before I go on about things, would you mind explaining this in more details? How do you do it? Let’s say for example La Mer? I am asking this because I don’t do it. When I listen to music, my language box closes up (down?). Let’s leave out the music with words for now, as I think that’s a somewhat different matter.

[ed.] If you mean to review or analyse, even in an informal manner, that’s again, a different matter. In order to do it, you need to be trained in certain way (or self-train). I’m sure we can appreciate music, or for that matter literature, without being a reviewer or a critic.

[ed. 2] Sorry, Lat. May be a Host can move this part into another thread and leave this to what the thread title says.

[Lat-Literal]

John Kinsella

Symphony No 4 'The Four Provinces'

All about Ireland,alas not on you tube but it's in the Naxos Library

https://www.chandos.net/chanimages/Booklets/MP3766.pdf

Sir Charles Hubert Hastings Parry

Symphony No 2 'The Cambridge'

Nothing to do with Cambridge AFAIK (but the composer has a town in his name )

https://youtu.be/onJu597tR7Y

Alan Bush

Symphony No 2 'The Nottingham'

Commissioned for the quincentennary of the Royal Charter,each movement depicts a district of the city

https://youtu.be/0Qg3GHLYY9k

Richard Arnell

Dagenham Symphony

OK not outside London,all about car making,alas not on the web or Naxos,on a Dutton cd

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2013/Jan13/Arnell_symphonies_CDLX7299.htm

David F Golightly

Symphony No 1 'The Middlesbrough'

Music and the beautiful game ! Extract here https://youtu.be/s_b2gtOUwic

Ah yes, thanks Rob.

Alan Bush - "Nottingham" - I should have recalled it although more vague on the others you have kindly mentioned. Still, Movements - 1. Sherwood Forest 2. Clifton Grove 3. Castle Rock 4. Goose Fair! Arnell is interesting - I'd like to hear the "Dagenham" although it was commissioned by Ford which places it in a slightly advertising category. Of these five, it might just be the Golightly that is closest although the name of it may be a consequence of who it was dedicated to? I'm not sure any of them are, say, the Honegger of trains and rugby.

Has M. Vinteuil mentioned Portsmouth Point ?

I missed it so thank you. It is, though, about rumbustious sailors, isn't it rather than the place and - as it happens - based on idea that the composer had when on a London bus.

Place in a similar category to Alwyn's "Derby Day"?

[Lat-Literal]

It's becoming very clear from Threads like these that this depends on each listener. I have no problem listening to the rhythmic, harmonic, thematic, textural, timbral etc features of a Mass without concerning myself about the words - perhaps even especially with a Mass, where there are so many other settings. I've heard all the Bach Cantatas several times, and know very few of the words - those which I do know the words convince me that they're somewhat repulsive ("My heart swims in blood" - yeuk!). The formal, "abstract" features of these works are what grabs my attention, not how that Music communicates what the words are supposed to communicate.

How about if that last sentence is broadened so that it represents a broader outlook beyond masses, ie the emphasis on music itself?

I am not sure how you are with Kraftwerk - but I would guess you would see a problem if the motorways, bikes, computers etc were taken out of their music?

Depiction isn't everything....I fully accept it......but there is no testament to Glasgow or Belfast or Manchester or Leeds or Hull or Cardiff or Bristol or Brighton or Croydon.

I find that strange.

[teamsaint]

Ah!! That’s interesting. Before I go on about things, would you mind explaining this in more details? How do you do it? Let’s say for example La Mer? I am asking this because I don’t do it. When I listen to music, my language box closes up (down?). Let’s leave out the music with words for now, as I think that’s a somewhat different matter.

Well, to go back to Ferney's example of the Furiant ,( which might be more helpful , and easier, than me describing a response to La Mer) when thinking about the rhythm, we might count the rhythm in words, ( even if "made up" words like Ferney's descrition of the rhythm). Or if hearing a harmonic change, we don't just hear it, we translate it into language( at last ordinary mortals like me do ! ) along the lines of " Oh its gone to the relative minor" .And of course in a thousand other ways. I don't doubt that the more experience ( and expert?) we become as listeners, the more intuitive this becomes, and the less "translation" is needed. To describe something that aims at a different approach, my daughter was involved in teaching at a school in Germany where they used something called the Gordon method.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_music_learning_theory

I think that this is a teaching method that attempts a type of immersive approach which attempts to cut out( among other things) the "translation " phase. But other people may know more about this than me. I certainly hope so !!
Anyway, I'm interested in your language box closing down. Maybe this is something I need to consider aiming towards ? Perhaps my language box is too active when listening, and I am assuming this is the state in which others hear/listen, when in fact it isn't always.

[Bryn]

Possibly the most esoteric to be mentioned in this thread, Howard Skempton's Waves of Bracknell.

[Lat-Literal]

Arthur Butterworth's score 'Kendal Clock' (Tinnitis Aurium Kendaliensis 1189–1989) for carillon, Op. 84 (1989).
A short piece based on the Kendal Town Hall clock commissioned to mark the 800th Anniversary of Kendal's Charter.

Possibly the most esoteric to be mentioned in this thread, Howard Skempton's Waves of Bracknell.

There's also brass band and concert band works to look at!

Lots of choral music is written for specific choirs/places; not sure if those fit your bill.
(The Howells canticle settings are perhaps prime examples but there have been many others, mass settings too.)

These are good......small (though not lesser) town (although I'm guessing a bit re the brass) and in the case of the former almost at the chime of a (small) city clock.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ibid: "Brown is careful not to claim that this is definitely or entirely Hardy’s Egdon Heath, Hardy’s sombre and vivid creation that feels like a prison to one of his most beloved characters, Eustacia Vye. As Hardy makes clear in the 1895 preface to The Return of the Native, Egdon was based on “at least a dozen” Dorset heaths."

Ergo, Hardy's Egdon Heath evokes Dorset heathland(s) which existed, and to some degree still exist. QED. (? )

Nice Parry (like the Third Symphony, the "English") - but does that mean that Holst is evoking "at least a dozen Dorset heaths", and can listeners who know the area "spot" which is which at different points of the composition - or is the Music a generalized "heaths" Music (and [how] does the harmony, rhythm, orchestration, texture etc etc communicate this? What if a listener says "that thirteenth chord with the sharpened seventh isn't Dorset - it's the Car Park outside the Dog and Loo Bowl pub on the Yorkshire Moors just outside Leyburn"?)