Moral Maze - British Places : Better Represented By Classical Music Than Other Forms

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does an understanding of the geographical location of Czech folk idioms not add to the understanding and enjoyment of Dvorak ?

Hmm ... possibly; but:

Apart from some University Challenge-type information about the nature of, say, the Furiant - and that it has the same metrical feature as the Mexican Huapango - what more do we "understand" about Dvorak's Sixth Symphony?

If I didn't already greatly enjoy the Sixth Symphony (which I do), would understanding that it was written by someone from the present-day Czech republic (who would have described himself as a native Bohemian, who also frequently used Moravian folk rhythms, was highly regarded by Brahms, and who wrote three of his most popular works whilst living in the United States) really help me to overcome my lack of "enjoyment"?

[doversoul1]

That's understanding "place" rather generously, dovers! Is there anything particularly Elizabethan Mancunian, or Durhamesque about the Music? (And is there a nationalistic difference between the Music Dowland wrote in England and that he wrote in Denmark?)

There's also, Delius - born in Bradford to German parents, lived in Florida and Norway before settling in France, where he wrote a work called Paris! (Mind you, I was baffled by Fritz/Fred's larger-scale structures for years - having lived with the Bradford weather for over twenty years, it all now makes perfect sense.)

It isn’t if you are on the other side of the glove . As for the idea of Elizabethan lute music, it goes back to my first encounter with Julian Bream’s LP back in 1967. It is entirely a personal thing but the impression of the music was such that no theories or facts will ever change my mind about it.

I think music’s association with a particular place is entirely dependent of the listener’s knowledge. Even with folk tunes and traditional musical instruments, unless you know what you are hearing, the music alone won’t point at the place.

[Richard Barrett]

these folks have thought much more deeply about the subject than those in the Classical Music world who seem rather limited IMV

It's true. But still, recognising a place from a sonic representation of it (even a field recording, let alone a transmutation into some kind of music) isn't really possible in principle, is it? I have very strong associations between some pieces of music and certain places. For example the second movement of Beethoven 5 always reminds me of my grandparents' garden. Why? I have no idea, but it's a much stronger feeling than any association I might be told I ought to have between say Elgar and the British countryside, that's the stuff of TV commercials really.

[teamsaint]

Hmm ... possibly; but:

Apart from some University Challenge-type information about the nature of, say, the Furiant - and that it has the same metrical feature as the Mexican Huapango - what more do we "understand" about Dvorak's Sixth Symphony?

If I didn't already greatly enjoy the Sixth Symphony (which I do), would understanding that it was written by someone from the present-day Czech republic (who would have described himself as a native Bohemian, who also frequently used Moravian folk rhythms, was highly regarded by Brahms, and who wrote three of his most popular works whilst living in the United States) really help me to overcome my lack of "enjoyment"?

Well understanding how a particular musical feature informed the writing can help overcome an issue, particularly if you start off listening in a way that is hindered by being poorly informed....or what one might describe as " listening for the wrong things".
I can certainly think of music that has only clicked when I realised ( part of) where the writer was coming from, and that I was listening for something different.

Whether such an understanding enhances enjoyment of music one already enjoys is a slightly different thing though?

[french frank]

If one accepts that, then you can take it further. So the pipes example, can be extended to the music of Stuart Adamson, who presented( created) a guitar sound which incorporated some elements of pipe sounds, and which thus, secondhand or by association perhaps, places his music geographically. I think you could listen to his sound, and confidentally place him as Scottish, without any lyric or other clue.

Well, his Guardian obituary mentions 'Big Country's distinctive riffs were described as "making guitars sounding like bagpipes" - a description Adamson hated' - so I think what enhanced enjoyment one gets from 'identifying' location is surely the listener's individual creation. Is 'Scottish', 'Czech' any different from 'jazz' or 'folk song' in terms of the musical colour palette; or any other sources which a composer absorbs and utilises?

[vinteuil]

... I have very strong associations between some pieces of music and certain places. For example the second movement of Beethoven 5 always reminds me of my grandparents' garden. Why? I have no idea, but it's a much stronger feeling than any association I might be told I ought to have between say Elgar and the British countryside ...

... I sink zere was a leetle Frenchman [1871-1922] oo might av elpt ere


.

[teamsaint]

Well, his Guardian obituary mentions 'Big Country's distinctive riffs were described as "making guitars sounding like bagpipes" - a description Adamson hated' - so I think what enhanced enjoyment one gets from 'identifying' location is surely the listener's individual creation. Is 'Scottish', 'Czech' any different from 'jazz' or 'folk song' in terms of the musical colour palette; or any other sources which a composer absorbs and utilises?

I wouldn't want to distract the discussion , but Stuart Adamson's music does reflect place in a number of ways, and this includes his music before Big Country. He might not have liked the description of his guitar work ( as a suggestion ,possibly feeling that it distracted from other musical qualities) , but it is hard to escape the association when listening.
I'm not sure my enjoyment of his music is particularly enhanced by the ( secondhand) association with place, but his playing was very distinctive, and one of the distinctive features was one which other people associate with place.

But I'd agree to the point in any case that the" listener's individual creation" is always critical.

[MrGongGong]

It's true. But still, recognising a place from a sonic representation of it (even a field recording, let alone a transmutation into some kind of music) isn't really possible in principle, is it? I have very strong associations between some pieces of music and certain places. For example, the second movement of Beethoven 5 always reminds me of my grandparents' garden. Why? I have no idea, but it's a much stronger feeling than any association I might be told I ought to have between say Elgar and the British countryside, that's the stuff of TV commercials really.

I'm not so sure about your first point.
I think there are Soundmarks that are recognisable in the same way that the Leitmotifs of film music are.
Last year I did a gig in Helsinki and included a tiny fragment of a recording of the cathedral bells I made on a previous visit. Several folks commented on this afterwards as it clearly was something they connected with.
The tricky bit is, of course, how to work with these things in non-clichéd ways

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well understanding how a particular musical feature informed the writing can help overcome an issue, particularly if you start off listening in a way that is hindered by being poorly informed....or what one might describe as " listening for the wrong things".
I can certainly think of music that has only clicked when I realised ( part of) where the writer was coming from, and that I was listening for something different.

Yes - that's happened to me, too (but I don't think ever in respect of geographical location - always from technical/aesthetic considerations). But isn't someone then still stuck with the point that there are features common to both the Mexican Huapango and the Czech Furiant, so they're left with the composer's stated intentions about the Music, rather than the Music itself when listening to Umpah Umpah Umpah Oompapa Oompapa ?

Whether such an understanding enhances enjoyment of music one already enjoys is a slightly different thing though?

Ah! - apologies; I thought that was what you were saying, that an already existing enjoyment can be enhanced by this extra bit of information. (To be fair to myself, I don't see how one can "add to enjoyment" if there ain't no enjoyment in t'first place! You meant something like "create [the beginnings of] enjoyment, then?)

[Richard Barrett]

and included a tiny fragment of a recording of the cathedral bells I made on a previous visit

Yes indeed a place can have a particular sonic signature, especially with things like bells. That's why I said "in principle". Most places seem to me relatively generic in terms of the sounds that happen there, although I'm not an expert on this kind of thing by any means so I'm happy to be corrected. I do like Chris Watson's work; the other day I was listening to his album made on Holy Island, which is a place I know quite well, though I wonder if I'd get as much from the recordings if I didn't.

[cloughie]

Songs are surely different? It's just the words of Waterloo Sunset (I had to remind myself what it sounded like) that have anything to do with 'place'. Classical works without words can't evoke specific places. The titles are simply acknowledging an environment which inspired the composer, rather than an attempt at a recognisable evocation, aren't they?

The Yorkshire duo. Scarborough Fair, the folk song, seems to have had a geographically diverse history and development - very little of which has to do with Scarborough, N. Yorkshire.

...and the S&G is actually a medley with Canticle! Michael Chapman's 'Postcards of Scarborough' behaps is a better connection with the town, however Paul Simon does have the British cred for writing 'Homeward Bound' on Widnes railway station, even if Widnes is not in the words of the song. Marvin Gaye sounds like he wants to get to Widnes in his song! The Bangles to Liverpool and Abba did not sound like they were enjoying Glasgow in Super Trooper.

[MrGongGong]

Yes indeed a place can have a particular sonic signature, especially with things like bells. That's why I said "in principle". Most places seem to me relatively generic in terms of the sounds that happen there, although I'm not an expert on this kind of thing by any means so I'm happy to be corrected. I do like Chris Watson's work; the other day I was listening to his album made on Holy Island, which is a place I know quite well, though I wonder if I'd get as much from the recordings if I didn't.

Chris Watson's work is wonderful and it's good to see him so visible in the mainstream media ("The Stephen Fry of Soundart" ?) . I think there is a whole lot of stuff around whether one knows a place or not. I've been listening to this one a fair bit in the last year http://www.and-oar.org/pop_and_47.htm l, I haven't been to the particular forest but do find it interesting even though I don't have a memory of it.
There is stuff around this in this one (which you probably have come accross before) http://www.aural-initiative.com/IRproject.pdf

I guess the key is to find ways of working with these things in fresh and open ways.
I'm just finishing editing an installation soundtrack and i'm contemplating how useful it is to tell the audienece some of the reasons behind why I chose certain sounds OR just to let them listen?

Thinking about this a bit more I do find Trevor Wishart's "Encounters in the Republic of Heaven" does say more to me about Northeast England than the pipes in "Pentes" (but that might be because i'm more of a fan of Trevor's work?)

[cloughie]

Yes, I agree that the connections are there by association rather than anything ( usually ) intrinsic. But I'm not sure I can remove those associations, once there.

As Vinny says, pipes, for example, place music by association, but the kind of music which they tend to produce can then be representative of place.

If one accepts that, then you can take it further. So the pipes example, can be extended to the music of Stuart Adamson, who presented( created) a guitar sound which incorporated some elements of pipe sounds, and which thus, secondhand or by association perhaps, places his music geographically. I think you could listen to his sound, and confidentally place him as Scottish, without any lyric or other clue.

That is making the assumption that bagpipes are Scottish - yes Scotland adopted and probably adapted them but depenging on what you read they could be Egyptian or Greek in origin. I attended a mediaeval fair in Madiera this year which featured a pipe band - so where did that tradition come from?

[Richard Barrett]

There is stuff around this in this one (which you probably have come across before) http://www.aural-initiative.com/IRproject.pdf

I hadn't actually, but one of my students did a very similar project a couple of years ago!

Thinking about this a bit more I do find Trevor Wishart's "Encounters in the Republic of Heaven" does say more to me about Northeast England than the pipes in "Pentes"

But that's mostly down to the voices, right?

[MrGongGong]

But that's mostly down to the voices, right?

Yes

Which is maybe to do with people more than places?