The death of western art music has been greatly exaggerated

[ahinton]

Considering the article is 'nonsense', 'drivel','horse****', 'an utter, utter, utter waste of time', 'garbage', 'more garbage', the writer 'a religious fanatic', and worse than 'toilet-paper', it has certainly somehow managed to create a bit of a stir among members hasn't it? ...

Well, I don't recall having used any such terminology in my responses to it but that doesn't mean that I have any more time for it than some of its detractors who have expressed themselves on it with greater vehemence.

[Richard Barrett]

Reilly has a lot to say about homosexuallity, too - again, in binary terms, involking 'natural law'

Thank you Jean - which would seem to confirm my contention that there was a nasty reactionary politics behind his article on music. I also found this from him, typical I suppose of the US religious far right: "... might not these diseases, along with HIV-AIDS, be Nature’s way of tapping us on the shoulder to let us know that these activities are misuses of our bodies? Isn’t it good news that, thanks to medical science, we now know which of our activities help engender these diseases, so that we can change our behavior? Shouldn’t we tell everyone about this? We seem to have gotten that message out in regard to tobacco and alcohol, but not yet in terms of homosexual behavior."

He also has prolix, predictable and mendacious things to say about Islam, and worked as Senior Advisor for Information Strategy in the Office of the Secretary of Defense from 2002 to 2006, which presumably would make him guilty of helping to peddle the lies on which the Iraq War was based. Scratch a conservative cultural ideologue and you usually find something much worse under the surface.

[Neil]

Considering the article is 'nonsense', 'drivel','horse****', 'an utter, utter, utter waste of time', 'garbage', 'more garbage', the writer 'a religious fanatic', and worse than 'toilet-paper', it has certainly somehow managed to create a bit of a stir among members hasn't it? ...

Good for publicisation and sales of the new edition. The author would be pleased. Any kind of 'stir' is good! We're only trying to help him, you know.

[P. G. Tipps]

Thank you Jean - which would seem to confirm my contention that there was a nasty reactionary politics behind his article on music. I also found this from him, typical I suppose of the US religious far right: "... might not these diseases, along with HIV-AIDS, be Nature’s way of tapping us on the shoulder to let us know that these activities are misuses of our bodies? Isn’t it good news that, thanks to medical science, we now know which of our activities help engender these diseases, so that we can change our behavior? Shouldn’t we tell everyone about this? We seem to have gotten that message out in regard to tobacco and alcohol, but not yet in terms of homosexual behavior."

He also has prolix, predictable and mendacious things to say about Islam, and worked as Senior Advisor for Information Strategy in the Office of the Secretary of Defense from 2002 to 2006, which presumably would make him guilty of helping to peddle the lies on which the Iraq War was based. Scratch a conservative cultural ideologue and you usually find something much worse under the surface.

And you are on the Extreme Revolutionary Left and once an active member of the SWP ... ?

Tell us something that might surprise us!

[french frank]

Considering the article is 'nonsense', 'drivel','horse****', 'an utter, utter, utter waste of time', 'garbage', 'more garbage', the writer 'a religious fanatic', and worse than 'toilet-paper', it has certainly somehow managed to create a bit of a stir among members hasn't it? ...

Yes, and the OP (who has form) logged off a minute after posting - but has probably been watching the effect of the pebble in the pond.

That said, I think the original article is narrow, prejudiced, agenda-driven and, as far as music is concerned, worthless. But another thought occurs to me which I may expand on if the present discussion runs out of steam.

[ahinton]

Thank you Jean - which would seem to confirm my contention that there was a nasty reactionary politics behind his article on music. I also found this from him, typical I suppose of the US religious far right: "... might not these diseases, along with HIV-AIDS, be Nature’s way of tapping us on the shoulder to let us know that these activities are misuses of our bodies? Isn’t it good news that, thanks to medical science, we now know which of our activities help engender these diseases, so that we can change our behavior? Shouldn’t we tell everyone about this? We seem to have gotten that message out in regard to tobacco and alcohol, but not yet in terms of homosexual behavior."

He also has prolix, predictable and mendacious things to say about Islam, and worked as Senior Advisor for Information Strategy in the Office of the Secretary of Defense from 2002 to 2006, which presumably would make him guilty of helping to peddle the lies on which the Iraq War was based. Scratch a conservative cultural ideologue and you usually find something much worse under the surface.

All that is as disgusting as it is unsurprising in itself but nevertheless prompts me to raise my eyebrows at the preparedness of this publication to publish this essay when it surely must realise that the author has controversial form in these areas?

"Isn't it good news that, thanks to medical science, we now know which of our activities help engender these diseases, so that we can change our behavior?", indeed; somehow I doubt that he is here referring to inappropriate use of hypodermics although,given what I think he's referring to instead, it might be interesting to know which particular aspects of medical science he is "thanking" here...

[jean]

Nor is he talking about sufferers from haemophilia treated with contaminated blood products - nor yet common-or-garden heterosexual promiscuity.

[ahinton]

And you are on the Extreme Revolutionary Left and once an active member of the SWP ... ?

What might that have to do with the price of fish (or of the DUP)? - by which of course I mean to ask what this has to do with the subject in general, the author's deplorable views of homosexuality and Islam or his conduct in the post that Richard mentions; even his use of the word "conservative" is a small c one...

[ahinton]

Nor is he talking about common-or-garden heterosexual promiscuity.

No - yet one might conclude from his other views that he'd regard this negatively as well, so one might wonder at the reason for his careful omission of reference thereto...

[P. G. Tipps]

Speculative and simplistic, as FF also agrees but what's "defensible" about it and, perhaps more importantly, what does it "challenge" and how? Moreover, I question how "Christian" it is of the writer to pour his own particular brand of patronising abuse on Schönberg and then compound it by making unworthy and dishonourable observations about the composer's vacillating attitudes to Judaism and his part therein; somehow I doubt that Christ would have been impressed by such conduct (the author's, I mean - not Schönberg's!).

All composers need to have a belief or set of beliefs but they do not need to be and have by no means always been "religious" ones. The writer, on the other hand, seem mainly to hold (and seek to promote) his belief that all real music is overtly tonal because it somehow conforms to certain unspecified natural laws but that, having "lost our way" during the early 20th century, we've only rediscovered the true path to salvation more recently thanks to such Christian figures as Górecki, Pärt and Tavener who have led us back to the Promised Land. As a composer of tonal music and a non-Christian (though by no means an anti-Christian) I suppose that, according to the author, I score only one out of two and so may as well have scored nil for all the good that my work can do (and, even then, I imagine that he'd disapprove of my particular kind of tonal music anyway).

You mention some members as reacting to this piece by "ranting and raving"; speaking for myself, I do no such thing but that doesn't mean that I cannot and/or should not question its very principles (insofar as it has any) and premises.

Certainly not, ahinton!

I defend your right to say exactly what you think and, unlike others, your posts have been forthright without resorting to unnecessary abuse.

I commend you for it!

[Richard Barrett]

Tell us something that might surprise us!

I'm not trying to surprise anyone. If you have an argument against anything in the post of mine you quoted, let's hear it! The facts are that this individual, apart from his political activities whether or not one sees eye to eye with them, is in his own words a homophobe, an antisemite and an Islamophobe, in other words a major bigot. Perhaps his musical opinions are somehow completely divorced from his opinions in these other areas, but that seems very unlikely. Therefore I would say his opinions on music should perhaps be seen in the context of the rest of what we know about him and his thinking, and viewed as consistent with that, especially since such views of music as he expresses are very often those held by bigots like him.

[P. G. Tipps]

I'm not trying to surprise anyone. If you have an argument against anything in the post of mine you quoted, let's hear it! The facts are that this individual, apart from his political activities whether or not one sees eye to eye with them, is in his own words a homophobe, an antisemite and an Islamophobe, in other words a major bigot. Perhaps his musical opinions are somehow completely divorced from his opinions in these other areas, but that seems very unlikely. Therefore I would say his opinions on music should perhaps be seen in the context of the rest of what we know about him and his thinking, and viewed as consistent with that, especially since such views of music as he expresses are very often those held by bigots like him.

A 'bigot' largely depends on what side of the political/religious/cultural fence one is on. I learnt that a long, long time ago.

I've been labelled a 'bigot' at least twice here for challenging what appeared to be forum orthodoxy. I was deeply hurt.

Such silly abuse is unhelpful, though, and detracts from a proper and intelligent discussion.

One can disagree with the thrust of Reilly's article whilst acknowledging he might just have something of worth to say.

None of us are the font of all wisdom ...

[Beef Oven!]

I'm not trying to surprise anyone. If you have an argument against anything in the post of mine you quoted, let's hear it! The facts are that this individual, apart from his political activities whether or not one sees eye to eye with them, is in his own words a homophobe, an antisemite and an Islamophobe, in other words a major bigot. Perhaps his musical opinions are somehow completely divorced from his opinions in these other areas, but that seems very unlikely. Therefore I would say his opinions on music should perhaps be seen in the context of the rest of what we know about him and his thinking, and viewed as consistent with that, especially since such views of music as he expresses are very often those held by bigots like him.

I didnt know who the author is and I simply read what he had to say. I found it very interesting (even reading it a second time) although I strongly disagree with his analysis. More importantly, I got no sense of any homophobia, Islamaphobia etc. in the article. Perhaps I was just fortunate in not knowing what some people say and think about him.

[Richard Barrett]

I got no sense of any homophobia, Islamaphobia etc. in the article. Perhaps I was just fortunate in not knowing what some people say and think about him.

No, there's no homophobia or Islamophobia in the article, but there's certainly antisemitism. You were fortunate in not knowing what else he has written and published, not what others say about him!

PGT, he has nothing of worth to say. Plenty of people have written far more enlightening things about these composers without attempting to trash everything else into the bargain.

[Beef Oven!]

PGT, he has nothing of worth to say. Plenty of people have written far more enlightening things about these composers without attempting to trash everything else into the bargain.

It feels like I've had all the artists I enjoy trashed since I was about 12 - I've just become numb to it!

Criticisms of Schoenberg have long, long ceased to register with me.

I guess that helped me enjoy the article, too!