The death of western art music has been greatly exaggerated

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There is great contemporary/20th century music based on Christian spirituality. Pärt, Tavener and Górecki aren't it imo, and even if someone else thinks more highly of them, the article does them no service by tearing down the rest of the twentieth century to elevate them.

Indeed - Webern, Messiaen, Harvey, Finnissy most immediately come to (my) mind.

But the article isn't about "Spirituality" any more than it is about "Western Art Music"; it's an attempt at control - trying to impose "value" on personally-cherished myths, themselves reliant on denial for their survival. Essentially, if what the article seeks to claim were true, there would never have been any need for it to be written. It isn't really written for other people - it craves self-confirmation.

[ahinton]

Indeed - Webern, Messiaen, Harvey, Finnissy most immediately come to (my) mind.

But the article isn't about "Spirituality" any more than it is about "Western Art Music"; it's an attempt at control - trying to impose "value" on personally-cherished myths, themselves reliant on denial for their survival. Essentially, if what the article seeks to claim were true, there would never have been any need for it to be written. It isn't really written for other people - it craves self-confirmation.

All too uncomfortably true, I fear.

[Beef Oven!]

A simple, straightforward, fair-minded response as opposed to the knee-jerk Christophobia and silly abuse so apparent elsewhere here.

When an article described as 'drivel' so easily touches such raw nerves it might just ... maybe only just ... contain a little grain of truth?

The article is the sort of thing that allows one or two people in this forum to start their posturing.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The article is the sort of thing that allows one or two people in this forum to start their posturing.

You and scotty, for example?

[P. G. Tipps]

Sorry, but I found nothing stimulating or interesting about it, nor could I find any precious grains of truth; only bias and ignorance and a lack of understanding or appreciation of the compositional problems composers like Schoenberg were faced with around the turn of the century and after Wagner.

Let those who choose to believe or take the view in the article get on with it. Good luck to them. They're not worth arguing with. Depressingly distorted views, regurgitated yet again. A waste of time.

In the same way that you can grow tasty mushrooms in horseshit you mean ?

Rather ill-advisedly I got involved in a discussion on this site a little while ago, countering some cultish nonsense and ad-hominem ranting with reasonable and (though I say so myself) cogently stated arguments, and after a brief exchange everything I posted there was moderated. They don't like it up 'em, Mr Mainwaring!

I'm not going to waste my time on the article linked here. Those people are small-minded, mean-spirited enemies of music.

The above extreme attitudes demonstrate the case for the defence of this challenging if otherwise speculative and simplistic article.

Mr Reilly is entitled to his opinion. If nothing else he reminds the reader of where much of Western Art originated and blossomed. That is rather unusual these days, at least in the now largely pagan UK, and certainly does no harm.

However, history surely teaches us that 'taking sides' in music is a bit of a useless and self-defeating exercise and, in any case, we cannot change history.

Some music can give the listener a huge spiritual comfort and inspiration however much some here might rant and rave. We all have our individual tastes in the sphere and, it must be said, innate prejudices both political and religious or secular.

Our very own Mr GG, for example, is probably even more 'evangelical' about his flavours in music than the much-abused Mr Reilly or poor old Sir Roger.

More forum tolerance please!

[Beef Oven!]

You and scotty, for example?

Show me where you think I've been posturing. If you can't, you should withdraw your accusation.

[Beef Oven!]

The above extreme attitudes demonstrate the case for the defence of this challenging if otherwise speculative and simplistic article.

Mr Reilly is entitled to his opinion. If nothing else he reminds the reader of where much of Western Art originated and blossomed. That is rather unusual these days, at least in the now largely pagan UK, and certainly does no harm.

However, history surely teaches us that 'taking sides' in music is a bit of a useless and self-defeating exercise and, in any case, we cannot change history.

Some music can give the listener a huge spiritual comfort and inspiration however much some here might rant and rave. We all have our individual tastes in the sphere and, it must be said, innate prejudices both political and religious or secular.

Our very own Mr GG, for example, is probably even more 'evangelical' about his flavours in music than the much-abused Mr Reilly or poor old Sir Roger.

More forum tolerance please!

What do you expect from this 'chummy' little forum? Even one of the senior hosts is throwing his bit in now making stupid allegations.

[MrGongGong]

Our very own Mr GG, for example, is probably even more 'evangelical' about his flavours in music than the much-abused Mr Reilly or poor old Sir Roger.

I might be a strong advocate for some musics

BUT I'm not suggesting that somehow my own interests are somehow morally superior or founded on more significant history.
You can like what you want (though I do draw the line at a certain English composers choral music one has to make a stand for some things ) these people (and don't forget that one of them is responsible for this http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/...8_25e9a8fc.jpg) like to dress themselves up, but it's clear to see that it's bullshit.

Taking oneself too seriously is unwise methinks

[french frank]

The above extreme attitudes demonstrate the case for the defence of this challenging if otherwise speculative and simplistic article.

Perhaps we could [all?] agree with you, Mr Tipps, that the article is 'speculative and simplistic', and it certainly challenges others to take up the cudgels in disagreeing.

Even I, fairly well-known as no positive advocate of 'new' music (= Schoenberg and later) questioned the credentials of this writer, which are on a par with mine. And I feel the introduction of religion into the issue was puzzlingly irrelevant, pointing to bees in bonnets. [At least Sir R's form of dogmatism has some sort of basis in specialist background, but that doesn't mean he can't be wrong]

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Show me where you think I've been posturing. If you can't, you should withdraw your accusation.

What "accusation"?

I saw my osteopath only last month - she said my posture was excellent, and she's a professional.

[MrGongGong]

What "accusation"?

I saw my osteopath only last month - she said my posture was excellent, and she's a professional.

Experts hey?
Can't trust 'em

[edashtav]

"Schoenberg is too melodious for me, too sweet."

(Bertolt Brecht)

expert opinion?

[jean]

There is great contemporary/20th century music based on Christian spirituality. Pärt, Tavener and Górecki aren't it imo, and even if someone else thinks more highly of them, the article does them no service by tearing down the rest of the twentieth century to elevate them.

The most important thing to say about the article I think.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The most important thing to say about the article I think.

[Beef Oven!]

.......I feel the introduction of religion into the issue was puzzlingly irrelevant, pointing to bees in bonnets. [At least Sir R's form of dogmatism has some sort of basis in specialist background, but that doesn't mean he can't be wrong]

These days I've developed a firm intolerance towards religion and I wish it didn't exist. But I've read a few things recently that make a powerful case that many democratic principles and government owe much to Christianity. This article isn't the same, but it did make me think .....