The death of western art music has been greatly exaggerated

[jean]

Catholics don't usually call themselves 'fundamentalists', which is why Tippsy put it in inverted commas I suppose. They don't use the term 'evangelical' much, either. Both of these terms are used more by/of Protestants who base their theology entirely on the Bible.

The difference between them and 'traditional' Catholics (as they like to think of themselves) is that they, the Protestants, will justify their abhorrence of homosexuality with reference to of scriptural (especially OT) texts, whereas Catholics like Reilly will invoke 'Natural Law', which they get ultimately from Aristotle, via St Thomas Aquinas.

But neither the Bible nor Natural Law has anything to say about the relationship between sprituality in general - or Christianity in particular - and music, though there have of course been attempts from time to time to abolish music from Christian worship altogether. And specifically Christian music has been purloined for other ends, as here.

[Neil]

However, there are undoubtedly many music-lovers, no doubt atheists/agnostics included, who share Reilly's intense dislike of the music he himself is 'not keen on'.

Put simply, they prefer a good tune and/or something that stirs their emotions or inspires the spirit.

If we condemn Reilly for what he says we must also condemn millions of others who do not share his faith.

Anti-religious prejudice should not cloud that simple truth!

Perhaps you fail to understand that I, speaking personally, would never 'condemn Reilly for what he says' if he would only keep the garbage he spouts to himself and his friends and admirers. If he doesn't like a great deal of modern music that's fine by me, so what? Who cares if he listens?
He's in the company of millions, as you say, and indeed of all those who have little or no time for any kind of ''classical music", old or new.

But the trouble is he's trying to insist he's right in not finding it to his personal taste. He's invoking religion and the overtone series (already done to death for the same purpose) to help his case, and using the utterances of all those who hated some of their music college experiences in the 60s, like John Adams, to back up his arguments.

This confident man is so damned convinced he's right and that those who do get enjoyment from it are wrong and misguided that he's produced a huge volume of collected writings with an extremely pretentious and misleading subtitle: A Listener's Guide to the Recovery of Modern Music . Who thought it needed to recover?

This is a pompous, self-righteous man's evangelical mission aiming to convert and persuade others to accept that HIS opinions and preferences are not simply that and no more than that, but THE TRUTH about the state of modern music and that it had lost its way for a while but is now back on track again at last, at least in some quarters.

I may detest some forms of modern art, for example, but I'd never dream of writing a big book about my personal dislikes to persuade others that I'm absolutely right to hate it, that it's justified for all sorts of good reasons, including religious ones, and that those who do like it are just plain wrong to do so!

That's all I'm moaning about and taking exception to - this man trying to force his narrow, private tastes on others by specious arguments and pontification. If he hates 'noise' and loves God that's just fine. Great, as they say! No-one should try to insist he's wrong. It's a free country. (But I might draw the line if he insisted the sun actually does go round the earth.)

But please, Mr. Reilly, just keep your views to yourself. Stop preaching to others. Some humility is in order. Stick to your own field of expertise before committing to print.

[P. G. Tipps]

But clearly this Reilly is inveighing not only against serialist practices but against what he has convinced himself is dissonant, amelodic and aharmonic music of all kinds composed in the 20th century and whose growth he attributes to some kind of dissolution of "religious faith", "spirituality" and the rest, regardlss of the beliefs actually held by the perpetrators thereof; I don't doubt that he would include much of Messiaen's work in that category, notwithstanding that composer's deeply held belief in God and its impact upon his music ...

I am delighted we appear to be in some agreement, ahinton ...

[P. G. Tipps]

Catholics don't usually call themselves 'fundamentalists', which is why Tippsy put it in inverted commas I suppose. They don't use the term 'evangelical' much, either. Both of these terms are used more by/of Protestants who base their theology entirely on the Bible.

The difference between them and 'traditional' Catholics (as they like to think of themselves) is that they, the Protestants, will justify their abhorrence of homosexuality with reference to of scriptural (especially OT) texts, whereas Catholics like Reilly will invoke 'Natural Law', which they get ultimately from Aristotle, via St Thomas Aquinas.

But neither the Bible nor Natural Law has anything to say about the relationship between sprituality in general - or Christianity in particular - and music, though there have of course been attempts from time to time to abolish music from Christian worship altogether. And specifically Christian music has been purloined for other ends, as here.

Can't argue with much of that pretty accurate analysis. jean ...

[Beef Oven!]

Or, perhaps to put it another way, "serial dabbling".

But clearly this Reilly is inveighing not only against serialist practices but against what he has convinced himself is dissonant, amelodic and aharmonic music of all kinds composed in the 20th century and whose growth he attributes to some kind of dissolution of "religious faith", "spirituality" and the rest, regardlss of the beliefs actually held by the perpetrators thereof; I don't doubt that he would include much of Messiaen's work in that category, notwithstanding that composer's deeply held belief in God and its impact upon his music, but then the invidious and seemingly unshakeable permanence of Schönberg's bogeyman status makes him a far easier target than Messiaen, as Reilly's essay quite sickeningly demonstrates.

Well put

[Neil]

Just to add: this thread was surely a wind up.
Tarantella, whoever he or she may be, must be laughing his or her head off at us all sitting wasting our time wrangling for days, off and on, while she or he goes off and has fun!

I wonder what he or she thinks? Maybe she or he doesn't actually give a toss!

[Beef Oven!]

Just to add: this thread was surely a wind up.
Tarantella, whoever he or she may be, must be laughing his or her head off at us all sitting wasting our time wrangling for days, off and on, while she or he goes off and has fun!

I wonder what he or she thinks? Maybe she or he doesn't actually give a toss!

Some of us haven't been wrangling.

[french frank]

Just to add: this thread was surely a wind up.
Tarantella, whoever he or she may be, must be laughing his or her head off at us all sitting wasting our time wrangling for days, off and on, while she or he goes off and has fun!

I wonder what he or she thinks? Maybe she or he doesn't actually give a toss!

I did point this out in Msg #65 but although nobody (?) thinks much of the article, the discussion has been quite interesting.

I suspect the OP approved of most of the article, but was aware that most people here wouldn't agree!

[P. G. Tipps]

Saying that Boulez dabbled in serialism is like saying Oliver Reed dabbled in alcoholic refreshment. Boulez on his schooling: "The Catholic God was the God that failed". Pretty clear I think!

Who here said that Boulez 'dabbled in serialism' ... ?

[Beef Oven!]

I did point this out in Msg #65 but although nobody (?) thinks much of the article, the discussion has been quite interesting.

I suspect the OP approved of most of the article, but was aware that most people here wouldn't agree!

I'm not nobody.

[Bryn]

Who here said that Boulez 'dabbled in serialism' ... ?

As for the music there have been, of course, quite a few Catholic /Christian composers who have dabbled with Serialism. Messiaen has already been mentioned and even the agnostic Boulez said he was forever grateful for the lifelong discipline he acquired at his seminary childhood school.

The implication, intended or not, is clear enough there.

[P. G. Tipps]

I did point this out in Msg #65 but although nobody (?) thinks much of the article, the discussion has been quite interesting.

I suspect the OP approved of most of the article, but was aware that most people here wouldn't agree!

Indeed ... and the OP's simple query effortlessly exposed the innate religious and political prejudices ('bigotries'?) of everyone who posted here, not just those of Mr Reilly!

[richardfinegold]

I find it interesting that there has been no mention that the two greatest mass murderers of all time, Hitler and Stalin, both had views about Music that were not dissimilar to Reilly. Regrettably, both had the means at their disposal to enforce their taste upon others with dire consequences for the non adherant. It's interesting that instead of realizing this simple truth Reilly instead conflates Serialism with Totalitarianism ( or at least Communism)

[Neil]

Indeed ... and the OP's simple query effortlessly exposed the innate religious and political prejudices ('bigotries'?) of everyone who posted here, not just those of Mr Reilly!

Of everyone? Got that wrong, I'm afraid. Go and have a cup of tea and read the thread from the beginning

[Richard Barrett]

I find it interesting that there has been no mention that the two greatest mass murderers of all time, Hitler and Stalin, both had views about Music that were not dissimilar to Reilly.

I did allude to that very clearly several times, though without mentioning them by name.