Instruments you struggle with

[doversoul1]

I'll try again with my defence of the harpsichord, with this sublime recording by Sophie Yates of Handel's first harpsichord suite. The opening prélude sounds wonderful to my ears. I need Vinteuil to give me some support here!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAyBGiW3KwA

Being a late comer to early music, I can sort of see how harpsichord sounds a bon mot from Beecham (there are at least three though may not all have been by Beecham) to un/non-converted. But to me, for example hearing Angela Hewitt playing Rameau on the modern grand is like looking at a very expensively made reproduction of an old master.

An instrument I wouldn’t miss terribly if I didn’t hear too often as a solo instrument is the cello. It sounds very hard work to me, very much like Mahan Esfahani’s description of Karajan’s Four Seasons (a cow pretending to be a dog, or to that effect). However, viola da gamba is a different story all together so I may not be un-rescue-able.

[Barbirollians]

I always understood that Beethoven railed against the inadequacies of the pianos of his time . I suspect he would have loved a Steinway though he might of course have written different music for it.

[cloughie]

N

I can, cloughie - the range of colours from that instrument makes modern instruments intended to play Rachmaninoff in Carnegie Hall sound ... well, monochrome in comparison. Getting the sound that Beethoven was more used to - as opposed to something he'd never heard - reveals so much about balance, timbre, and texture that are lost in 20th Century instruments.

I'll settle for the black and white then rather than the colured clang! You may put it down to authenticity - I put it down to personal aural taste!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I always understood that Beethoven railed against the inadequacies of the pianos of his time .

Not "always", no; there are as many letters of appreciation to piano manufacturers as there are criticisms (and some of the latter are practical matters - ease of pedalling, effectiveness of action-type things rather than timbre). I'm not clear how he could have given such praise/criticism given his deafness - we need Roehre to give us details of the precise nature of of how his affliction affected what he could hear from his own playing. Nonetheless, the stories of the broken strings etc all originate from the time after his deafness had become a serious problem. Earlier descriptions of his playing comment on the delicacy of his touch as well as the power of his playing.

I suspect he would have loved a Steinway though he might of course have written different music for it.

I certainly think that this is true of Bach - myself, I fantasize that Beethoven would have written one of his letters appreciating the louder sound, but annoyed at the comparative homogeneity of sound and contemptuous of the una corda pedal.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'll settle for the black and white then rather than the colured clang! You may put it down to authenticity - I put it down to personal aural taste!

It is both, of course: it is undoubtedly (more) "authentic" - but this is of limited account if you don't like the sound of the things. I do - precisely for the klang (and the balance, and voicing, and ... ) Steinways/Bössendorfers/Baldwins/Bechsteins/Yamahas are wonderful things for Rachmaninoff, Britten, Stockhausen, Stevenson, Lachenmann and many, many other great composers who wrote with that sort of piano sound in mind. (Not that they are interchangeable - recently, Michael Parsons commented how he prefers his piano Music to be played on a Yamaha than on a Steinway.) And, of course, Pollini, Gilels, Kempff, Lewis, Frith, Barenboim, Schnabel et al infin have recorded incredibly impressive and insightful performances of the repertoire.

But it's interesting that so often people's preference to hear pre-C20th Music played on C20th instruments stops at the mid-century point. If Bach/Beethoven/whoever "would have loved/preferred to have heard their Music played on a good Steinway Grand"; why not on synthesizers, saxophones, steel pans, banjos, electric guitars, drumkits, kazoos, ondes martinons ... or any other instruments unknown to them? It is indeed a "personal aural taste" revealing things about ourselves much more than the Music. Something to be treasured, then!

[cloughie]

It is both, of course: it is undoubtedly (more) "authentic" - but this is of limited account if you don't like the sound of the things. I do - precisely for the klang (and the balance, and voicing, and ... ) Steinways/Bössendorfers/Baldwins/Bechsteins/Yamahas are wonderful things for Rachmaninoff, Britten, Stockhausen, Stevenson, Lachenmann and many, many other great composers who wrote with that sort of piano sound in mind. (Not that they are interchangeable - recently, Michael Parsons commented how he prefers his piano Music to be played on a Yamaha than on a Steinway.) And, of course, Pollini, Gilels, Kempff, Lewis, Frith, Barenboim, Schnabel et al infin have recorded incredibly impressive and insightful performances of the repertoire.

But it's interesting that so often people's preference to hear pre-C20th Music played on C20th instruments stops at the mid-century point. If Bach/Beethoven/whoever "would have loved/preferred to have heard their Music played on a good Steinway Grand"; why not on synthesizers, saxophones, steel pans, banjos, electric guitars, drumkits, kazoos, ondes martinons ... or any other instruments unknown to them? It is indeed a "personal aural taste" revealing things about ourselves much more than the Music. Something to be treasured, then!

I suppose C19th composers such as Brahms would have been the source of interesting conversations, having lived through the transition to the concert grand. What I will say, and edge will probably agree with me, is that the piano is the most complex instrument to learn to play properly and the coordination and brainache needed to get anywhere near getting it right has presented me with one of the biggest challenges ever. The other instrument which challenges is the human voice - singing is more than just being able to produce a note and doing it properly, getting breathing right and extending range is hard work!

[Richard Tarleton]

It is both, of course: it is undoubtedly (more) "authentic" - but this is of limited account if you don't like the sound of the things. I do - precisely for the klang (and the balance, and voicing, and ... ) Steinways/Bössendorfers/Baldwins/Bechsteins/Yamahas are wonderful things for Rachmaninoff, Britten, Stockhausen, Stevenson, Lachenmann and many, many other great composers who wrote with that sort of piano sound in mind. (Not that they are interchangeable - recently, Michael Parsons commented how he prefers his piano Music to be played on a Yamaha than on a Steinway.) And, of course, Pollini, Gilels, Kempff, Lewis, Frith, Barenboim, Schnabel et al infin have recorded incredibly impressive and insightful performances of the repertoire.

But it's interesting that so often people's preference to hear pre-C20th Music played on C20th instruments stops at the mid-century point. If Bach/Beethoven/whoever "would have loved/preferred to have heard their Music played on a good Steinway Grand"; why not on synthesizers, saxophones, steel pans, banjos, electric guitars, drumkits, kazoos, ondes martinons ... or any other instruments unknown to them? It is indeed a "personal aural taste" revealing things about ourselves much more than the Music. Something to be treasured, then!

In a spirit of seeking further enlightenment - not qualified to argue - isn't it more of an evolutionary process? As a higgorant amateur I wonder if you're overstating the extent to which the modern Steinway (et al) is an entirely different instrument (as you seem to be)? Picking up cloughie's latest, Liszt (who met Beethoven, and was at the cutting edge of piano evolution in the 19thC) might also have had an interesting perspective. I see that in 1876, at Wahnfried: Standing in the centre of the great music room was Wagner's new Steinway grand piano, a gift from the American firm to mark the inauguration of the festival. It was on this piano that Liszt delivered a memorable performance of the slow movement of Beethoven's Hammerklavier Sonata, which moved Wagner to tears..... [Walker]. Never mind Pollini & co, what, I wonder (idle speculation again) would Beethoven have made of this, a mere half century later? At what point on the evolutionary scale (there is probably a technical answer to this) did the modern grand become an entirely different beast, fit only for Rachmaninov onwards?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well - "evolutionary processes" lead to very different results: humans may be related to chimpanzees, but we don't send each other Christmas cards. And certainly the sound of a Broadwood is a very different animal from that of a modern Steinway - there wouldn't be any discussion such as this if it wasn't. The evolution doesn't have easily-identifiable "points", it is a gradual process - one with its most rapid changes in the 19th Century (the differences between Chopin's piano and Fauré's are much stronger than those between a 1940s Steinway and a 1990s Yamaha, for example) which does mean that a Musician who was active in 1810 could not have "pre-heard" the sound of the piano of 1910. (In the same way - and not for dissimilar reasons - the performing venues in which the instruments were heard were altered over the century.)

[Pianoman]

Even a 'Rachmaninov' Steinway sounds audibly different from the latest models - just listen to Pletnev's marvellous recital from the Rach villa near Lucerne to hear that...similarly, Andsnes's Grieg recital on the composer's instrument from c. 1901 reveals a very different timbre, less heavy in the bass, a real bell-like clarity in the top registers, less homogenised (as Ferney points out). That's the instrument these composers played, composed on, and I for one am more than happy with that...

[Stanfordian]

From my experience if there is a single orchestral instrument that frequently sounds off key it will be the horn.

[jean]

Donald Macleod has just referred to the 'weak little square pianos' available in Vienna at this point in Haydn's career!

I love them. And fortepianos. And harpsichords.

I grew up with the Liverpool Cathedral organ, and the monster in St George's Hall. I thought I really hated the instrument, but then I heard early organs and I was converted.

[Richard Tarleton]

Even a 'Rachmaninov' Steinway sounds audibly different from the latest models - just listen to Pletnev's marvellous recital from the Rach villa near Lucerne to hear that...similarly, Andsnes's Grieg recital on the composer's instrument from c. 1901 reveals a very different timbre, less heavy in the bass, a real bell-like clarity in the top registers, less homogenised (as Ferney points out). That's the instrument these composers played, composed on, and I for one am more than happy with that...

A simple but obvious, and probably stupid, question from a layman with an interest in evolutionary biology Who, or what, has led the evolution of the piano in directions which (judging by this thread) so many find unsatisfactory? Why, if modern pianos are so unsuited to pre-20th C repertoire, which makes up so much of what pianists play, have so many great 20th century pianists specialising in this repertoire continued to put up with it? Are they at the mercy of whatever the piano manufacturers decide to make? I suppose there are practical limitations on how many pianos for different purposes pianists, and venues, are able to have, and that (to flog the evolutionary analogy to death) generalists tend to triumph over specialists... But, to take cars, types of car available vary enormously, it's a very demand-led market, and there are lots of different types for different purposes. It's as if all pianists drove Range Rovers because it's the only car on the market.....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think (NB) that lots of things contributed to the development of the piano in the 19th Century - not least the "need" for different manufacturers to have something about their instruments different from their competitors; larger halls needing louder instruments; professional performers needing instruments that would enable them to show off to larger audiences (ie greater numbers in tha audience, not fatter people); composers requiring different sonorities from those suited for earlier composers.

And, I also think that as there were far more people listening to the professional piano sound that they heard in concerts, recitals and on recordings, it became the sound that was considered "best" - instead of "evolution" = "best adapted to the expressive requirements of the Music", the development of piano sound became equated with "improvements" to the sound; and the older instruments just weren't heard. Recent performers are more likely to have experience playing all sorts of different pianos - and whilst most concert halls have only a modern Grand Piano on offer to visiting artists (who cannot afford either the variety of instruments at home, nor the resources to transport them to venues) it will be the case that most Live piano recitals will feature an instrument whose features were developed many, many years after the Music being played was written. (But there will be some - and I imagine their numbers will increase, whose preference will be to perform and record different repertoires on instruments closer in timbre to those to which the composers were accustomed.)

[Pianoman]

(But there will be some - and I imagine their numbers will increase, whose preference will be to perform and record different repertoires on instruments closer in timbre to those to which the composers were accustomed.)

Yes, I note that a 'period' piano will be employed at the next Chopin competition apparently - much to the absolute horror of some...! I welcome it, as the difference in sound between most modern concert grands in minimal imo (whatever the manufacturers like to claim) and this will 'test' the musicians in a very different way. Steinway led the way with more heft, weighty tone, sheer volume, thunderous bass etc etc, not always what Chopin, or indeed Brahms, Schubert, Mendelsssohn really need..

[Richard Tarleton]

Thanks Ferney - very helpful. A trend well established with early plucked and scraped instruments, of course, which are easier to own several of and to cart about. And in their case I'm in no doubt that the music written for them sounds so much better on the intended instrument, although I'm grateful to the guitar for having been my way into early music. I have less interest in much of the written-for classical guitar repertoire these days, as listener or inadequate player.....