Handel's Water Music: 300th Anniversary

[Bryn]

ER... not quite, Bryn! Clearly those players had to do exactly what the conductor asked them to do and they did it as well as I've ever heard it done without the help of either valves or a hand in the horn's bell.

I think you will find that the decision was not wholly that of maestro Niquet. The modern Le Concert Spirituel is a decidedly democratic set-up. The members of the horn section would have been very much involved in deciding how best they might reproduce the pitches Handel might have expected from unstopped instruments. The decisions collectively arrived at may not accord with those you and other horn players might have made, but to lay the responsibility on Herve Niquet is, I think, unwarranted.

[Tony Halstead]

I think you will find that the decision was not wholly that of maestro Niquet. The modern Le Concert Spirituel is a decidedly democratic set-up. The members of the horn section would have been very much involved in deciding how best they might reproduce the pitches Handel might have expected from unstopped instruments. The decisions collectively arrived at may not accord with those you and other horn players might have made, but to lay the responsibility on Herve Niquet is, I think, unwarranted.

I think that it's not really too complicated. It's even a black/white or yes/no thing!
Question to maestro before 1st rehearsal: 'how do you want us to play? with 'pitch-modified' intonation' or with 'unmodified' intonation?
Working with Andrew Manze was the first time I have ever been privileged to be part of a discussion with a 'baroque' conductor/ director concerning specific playing techniques. Over a 37-year time-span of trying to be a 'period horn player' I have been lucky enough to try out, in several concerts and recordings, various horn techniques, with varying degrees of success, in Haendel's 'Water Music:

1) 1980, John Eliot Gardiner, English Baroque Soloists, 'Erato', no requested pitch modification by conductor, hence a democratic decision by the horn section to use 'hand modification' technique. End result: only sporadically successful

2) 1983, Trevor PInnock, English Concert, DG Archive, initial request by conductor to play with 'open' unmodified intonation, very quickly cancelled as soon as he heard how awful it sounded... thereafter, hand-horn technique used, by quick democratic discussion between 2 horn players! End result: 'curate's egg', OK in parts but definitely not really 'authentic'.

3) 1991-ish: John Eliot Gardiner, English Baroque Soloists, 'Philips' , no specific request by conductor, so, a democratic decision made by 2 horn players to use 'neo baroque' horn technique, i.e. 'vent holes' as used by 'baroque trumpeters, to correct the intonation of the 11th and 13th/14th harmonics.
End result: fairly successful in many ways but the Philips microphones are uncomfortably close to the horns and make them sound 'larger than life'!

4) 1996/1997-ish: Robert King, King's Consort,
'Hyperion': no specific request by conductor, 'neo baroque' horns used. But a much more accurate and 'believable ' sound-picture and overall balance of the horns compared to the above Philips recording.

5) 2010/ 2011 ? Andrew Manze, English Concert, BBC : Authentic open unmodified harmonics used for 'test recording' , rejected 'out of hand' by BBC producer.
End result: FAIL

[MickyD]

Many thanks again, Tony...I do love all this first hand information. That really IS 'authentic'!

[cloughie]

Perhaps we should also be celebrating the 95th anniversary of Hamilton Harty's water Music Suite as those of us of around a certain age, probably got to know the Water Music via this source, maybe via the LSO Szell, RPO Weldon or PO Karajan. I'm sure that hipp(ies) will be derisory about Harty's arrangement but I guess at the time of his Suite, Water Music was not a regular in the repertoire so we probably owe him for bringing it into the concert hall! I still like the Szell recording which has his big band Fireworks Suite and a sumptuous Largo from Xerxes!

[BBMmk2]

#17. Thanks Tony. Many thanks for that most detailed post. The most suiccesful, sounds like Robert King's version!

[Bryn]

Sorry Tony, for me your 5 recording experiences of the work go to reinforce the claim made at the time of their commercial recording (Glossa) that Le Concert Spirituel were indeed give the first modern 'authentic' performance 'wrong notes' and all. I'm with Edward Greenfield on this one.

[BBMmk2]

What about non-authentic recordings like from ASMF and ECO, Marriner Leppard etc?

[cloughie]

What about non-authentic recordings like from ASMF and ECO, Marriner Leppard etc?

Good eh bbm?...and Mackerras and Davison among others!

[BBMmk2]

Good eh bbm?...and Mackerras and Davison among others!

Yes! I get quite bored sometimes with all this authenticity stuff. Good to hear non-period performers play it as well. I would think c/w The Royal Fireworks Music, Sir Andrew Davis would be ideal here, as he was with Handel's Messiah, which is another great recording.

[pastoralguy]

I think that it's not really too complicated. It's even a black/white or yes/no thing!

3) 1991-ish: John Eliot Gardiner, English Baroque Soloists, 'Philips' , no specific request by conductor, so, a democratic decision made by 2 horn players to use 'neo baroque' horn technique, i.e. 'vent holes' as used by 'baroque trumpeters, to correct the intonation of the 11th and 13th/14th harmonics.
End result: fairly successful in many ways but the Philips microphones are uncomfortably close to the horns and make them sound 'larger than life'!

:

I picked this cd up this afternoon and I have to say that it sounds pretty terrific! The horns are nice and 'snarly'. Perhaps it's been remastered since this disc is a very grand affair with gold trays.

Loving those horns, Tony!!

[pastoralguy]

This Handel stuff is terrific! Why have I avoided it all these years?

[Tony Halstead]

Sorry Tony, for me your 5 recording experiences of the work go to reinforce the claim made at the time of their commercial recording (Glossa) that Le Concert Spirituel were indeed give the first modern 'authentic' performance 'wrong notes' and all. I'm with Edward Greenfield on this one.

No need to be sorry, Bryn, I agree with you! I was in no way implying or even hinting that there was in existence an earlier, equally authentic recording to that of Le Concert Spirituel. Even if Suzy hadn't panned the English Concert/ Manze it would never have been made into a CD; as I said, it was intended to accompany a TV programme about the Water Music.
PS I had forgotten about a 'modern instrument' recording that I took part in, with the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by George Malcolm. Although I absolutely loved George's keyboard playing, his take on Handel was unfortunately decidedly stodgy!

[Tony Halstead]

I picked this cd up this afternoon and I have to say that it sounds pretty terrific! The horns are nice and 'snarly'. Perhaps it's been remastered since this disc is a very grand affair with gold trays.

Loving those horns, Tony!!

Many thanks, very kind of you, Mr Pastoralguy. I must try to have another listen to that Philips recording to check whether any changes have been made to the sound balance since I last heard it.

[pastoralguy]

Many thanks, very kind of you, Mr Pastoralguy. I must try to have another listen to that Philips recording to check whether any changes have been made to the sound balance since I last heard it.

Without this thread I wouldn't have listened to this cd or these works!

It's one of the great aspects of these boards is that it plants musical seeds...

[BBMmk2]

Without this thread I wouldn't have listened to this cd or these works!

It's one of the great aspects of these boards is that it plants musical seeds...

Many thanks PG, I find that too. Especially qith the recent talk of Martinu, on other threads