Well I thought, especially with the famous premier of Handel's WTer Music, there would be much discussion. Especially with the recordings that are available. Off hand, as I'm not at home, I have ASMF, Marriner. Other than that, I'm not too sure.
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Don’t cry for me
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I re tidy that! Holiday Syndrome! Could a host please re tidy this please?
I do have JEGFER's recording. Be interesting to see what other member's reccomend.Last edited by BBMmk2; 19-07-17, 10:08.Don’t cry for me
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J S Bach 1685-1750Comment
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Which J.E.G. recordng exactly, BBM?Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
He has made at least 2, the 1st for 'Erato' and the 2nd for 'Philips'.
I was playing on both of them. Unfortunately I was unhappy with my own contribution on both recordings, because we (horns) used historically inappropriate 'hand horns' on the Erato version
, and neo-baroque horns on the Philips one (very closely and glaringly recorded, with a nasty, brassy edge to the sound)
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I don't know what a "hand horn" is
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]Comment
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They even had son et lumière back then, didn't they - well, fireworks, at any rate.Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View PostComment
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I have the Phillips recording. What I'd like to know, SA does too, is what a hand horn is?Originally posted by Tony View PostWhich J.E.G. recordng exactly, BBM?
He has made at least 2, the 1st for 'Erato' and the 2nd for 'Philips'.
I was playing on both of them. Unfortunately I was unhappy with my own contribution on both recordings, because we (horns) used historically inappropriate 'hand horns' on the Erato version, and neo-baroque horns on the Philips one (very closely and glaringly recorded, with a nasty, brassy edge to the sound).Don’t cry for me
I go where music was born
J S Bach 1685-1750Comment
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My understanding is that early natural horns did not lend themselves to hand stopping. Later baroque designs did. I know Tony holds the horn contingent of the modern Le Concert Spirituel in some contempt re. their choice of overtones, but when they played the Water Music at the Proms, as when they recorded the same work, they used unstopped horns.Originally posted by Brassbandmaestro View Post
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I have just acquired the Niquet recording, and though I wouldn't recommend it as a library choice, I find it really thrilling - a vast orchestra and such a French tang to it. I also have Minkowski - very good indeed. Hogwood was the first I acquired, and it has a very strong place in my heart, it having been released shortly after a Prom performance back in the late 70s, which really made people think again about this piece. Harnoncourt followed shortly afterwards with an even more provocative recording, one which I also have and love, for all its idisoyncracies.Originally posted by Bryn View PostMy understanding is that early natural horns did not lend themselves to hand stopping. Later baroque designs did. I know Tony holds the horn contingent of the modern Le Concert Spirituel in some contempt re. their choice of overtones, but when they played the Water Music at the Proms, as when they recorded the same work, they used unstopped horns.
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Harnoncourt? I didn't know he recorded this. I do love Hogwood as well.
Incidentally, I should have realised from that marvellous Prom concert, that Bryn very kindly put up, the horns in that orchestra, were something else! And ofcourse, were 'hand held', as I understand it.Don’t cry for me
I go where music was born
J S Bach 1685-1750Comment
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Harnoncourt? I didn't know he recorded this. I do love Hogwood as well.
Incidentally, I should have realised from that marvellous Prom concert, that Bryn very kindly put up, the horns in that orchestra, were something else! And ofcourse, were 'hand held', as I understand it.Don’t cry for me
I go where music was born
J S Bach 1685-1750Comment
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ER... not quite, Bryn! Clearly those players had to do exactly what the conductor asked them to do and they did it as well as I've ever heard it done without the help of either valves or a hand in the horn's bell.Originally posted by Bryn View PostMy understanding is that early natural horns did not lend themselves to hand stopping. Later baroque designs did. I know Tony holds the horn contingent of the modern Le Concert Spirituel in some contempt re. their choice of overtones, but when they played the Water Music at the Proms, as when they recorded the same work, they used unstopped horns.
I have to confess that at the time when I heard it, I was still feeling a bit grumpy about an experience that I had had at the BBC a few years earlier, making a recording of the Water Music with the English Concert directed by Andrew Manze. When we started rehearsing, Andrew asked the horns and trumpets to just 'go for it' and let the non-tempered pitches of our instruments' harmonic series ring out without any help from the hand or the 'vent holes'. It was a Sunday and the BBC's lady producer didn't attend the rehearsal.
In the last half hour of the rehearsal we made a 'test recording' of some movements so that she could hear it next day. The strings and oboes of the orchestra were absolutely wonderful in slightly bending the pitch of certain notes to accomodate the horns' very sharp B flats ( 11th harmonic) and Ds (either very flat as 13th harmonic or very sharp as 14th harmonic..we chose the sharper option!). We came away from the rehearsal believing that we had come closer to real 'authenticity' than we had ever done before, and looked forward to making the recording next day. It was to have been a 'fall back' safety net to accompany the TV programme which we made a few days later, sailing down the Thames wearing 18th costumes, playing the Water Music.
Next morning the producer heard the recording and totally panned it, saying that we couldn't possibly play it like that.
'Why not'? we asked, 'that's how it would have sounded in 1715 or so!' Andrew Manze backed us up by saying that he had asked us to play it like that.
The producer simply said 'it's just not acceptable, it's simply not up to BBC standards, we do have standards you know!'
So we had to give in, and resort to playing techniques that weren't invented until about 30 years later.
I can only assume that 'BBC Standards' had slipped somewhat by the time of Le Concert Spirituel prom! Somewhere in the vaults of the BBC there may well still exist a panned/ banned tape of the English Concert playing the Water Music using authentic brass a few years before Le Concert Spirituel came on the scene!
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I wonder if the same lady producer had the same reaction to the introduction and prologue to Britten's 'Serenade for tenor, horn and strings...'Comment
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What a fascinating story, Tony, thanks for that. I do hope that one day I can get to hear that censored recording! Oh dear, wretched producers, I have had my fill of them in my time.
This is for bbm, the Harnoncourt recording which now has two nice added organ concertos and can be had for a good price from marketplace sellers:
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