Sight Reading and British Orchestras

[parkepr]

It's often said that British orchestras are 2nd to none with regards to sight reading.... even when comparing them to orchestra like the Berlin Phil etc... I wonder if this is purely because they are so busy they have to be able to sight read so quickly due to limited rehearsal time compared to to other orchestras?

[Keraulophone]

It's the same with pro singers and choirs.

I fear it all comes down to financial constraints and the law of time economy.

Unfortunately, some of their concert performances also sound like sight-reading, and may in fact be so if a deputy was sent to a rehearsal but didn't play in the concert (or vice-versa). I forget which guest conductor it was who complained that he didn't recognise the same orchestra at the concert from the rehearsal.

[pastoralguy]

My favourite example of this is cd that the (R)SNO recorded under the late Sir Alexander Gibson for Chandos. Gibson and the orchestra had been recording the Sibelius Symphonies and found themselves with free time at the end of each session. The librarian would hand out the parts for a Berlioz overture and the orchestra would sight read it with the red light on.

Eventually, a cd of Berlioz overtures was released, (including a few obscure ones), and the recording won a Grand Prix du Disc!

[Hornspieler]

It's often said that British orchestras are 2nd to none with regards to sight reading.... even when comparing them to orchestra like the Berlin Phil etc... I wonder if this is purely because they are so busy they have to be able to sight read so quickly due to limited rehearsal time compared to to other orchestras?

Absolutely Correct. I remember a distinguished guest conductor telling us the very same thing.

It illustrated for me the difference between Ernest Read's School Orchestra Summer Orchestral courses at Sherborne and
The National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain.

We, under ErnestRead used our week to play through several overtures, at least two symphonies and occasionally accompanying such (later great) violin soloists as 14-year-old Ralph Holmes.

The NYO spent their week preparing a programme consisting of an Overture, an orchestral suite and a very difficult symphony (eg Shostakovitch No 10) for a public performance ( eg. The Proms) at the end of the week.

Parts were sent in advance to all the young players beforehand and each section had its own professional coach.

We,from our various schools were assembled into four orchestras.
Orchestra A which I have referred to above, was conducted by Ernest Read.

Orchestra B, Mostly younger but still having some experience was conducted by Leslie Regan

Orchestra C, Not extremely competant but showing promise was conducted by the Violinist David Martin.

Orchestra D, Mostly first-timers was coached and encouraged by Noel Cox.

In footballing terms, any of the participants could gain promotion to the next orchestra up.

At the end of the week each orchestra gave its own little concert, selected from the works that they had played during the week.

Orchestra A gave a grand finale concert selected from the many works that they had played earlier in the week.
The audience consisted of the members of the other three orchestras and any invited parents and friends. Then we all went back to our school orchestras until the following Summer Holidays

When I entered the Royal Academy of Music, I found that I could "sightread the pants off" any former member of the NYO who join the Academy at the same time as me.

Yes. Shortage of money means shortage of rehearsal time, which totally agrees with your comments

HS

[Pulcinella]

Weren't the Hollywood 'session' orchestras (the Columbia Symphony was one such, I think) renowned for their sight-reading skills?

[cloughie]

Weren't the Hollywood 'session' orchestras (the Columbia Symphony was one such, I think) renowned for their sight-reading skills?

Previn's book 'No minor chords - My years in Hollywood' is a fascinating read which refers to this and also the speed at which music was written and arranged by Film Music composers, such as AP himself.

[cloughie]

My favourite example of this is cd that the (R)SNO recorded under the late Sir Alexander Gibson for Chandos. Gibson and the orchestra had been recording the Sibelius Symphonies and found themselves with free time at the end of each session. The librarian would hand out the parts for a Berlioz overture and the orchestra would sight read it with the red light on.

Eventually, a cd of Berlioz overtures was released, (including a few obscure ones), and the recording won a Grand Prix du Disc!

I think it was spare time at the end of a session that led to Boult recording Brahms 3rd - probably in one take! - with the LSO. That, in turn, led to a Brahms Symphony cycle and his recordings of the Serenades.

[Petrushka]

It's often said that British orchestras are 2nd to none with regards to sight reading.... even when comparing them to orchestra like the Berlin Phil etc... I wonder if this is purely because they are so busy they have to be able to sight read so quickly due to limited rehearsal time compared to to other orchestras?

Not doubting the sight reading skills of modern British orchestral players but aren't the above factors now largely a thing of the past? The LSO, for example, will now usually repeat a concert two, or even three times, then take the same programme on a short European tour, say a concert in Paris and another in Brussels. Moreover, the LSO now has co-principals and I feel sure adequate rehearsal time. I'm not sure how much better off the LPO and Philharmonia are in this respect. Perhaps someone 'in the know' can comment?

I've heard all the horror stories of orchestral players having a morning rehearsal for a strenuous programme, dashing across London for an afternoon recording session of something totally different, then dashing back again hopefully in time to make the 7.30 start at the RFH or wherever. Then there were the tours...

I'm sure some will recall orchestral members failing to turn up for a concert with all the consequent delay. I remember a 1979 BBCSO complete Sleeping Beauty under Rozhdestvensky (it appeared on BBC Legends) that didn't start for over an hour later because the bass trombone hadn't turned up. One never hears of such a thing nowadays but it was by no means uncommon in the 1970s.

It's interesting that all of the stories so far on this thread relate to times gone by. Tell me it's different now!!

[Richard Barrett]

Tell me it's different now!!

I don't get the impression that it is. Having worked with the BBCSO several times, and several more or less equivalent orchestras in Germany, what you find is that the BBC orchestra gets the music down in its essentials more or less right away, after which improvement is a lot slower, while ensembles like the BRSO and the SWR orchestra make a slower start and accelerate as rehearsals go on. They all get to more or less the same place by the time of the concert though. Note that I'm talking about new repertoire here (and orchestras that specialise in it). I don't think many orchestras any more really have to sightread Mahler for example.

[Hornspieler]

I don't get the impression that it is. Having worked with the BBCSO several times, and several more or less equivalent orchestras in Germany, what you find is that the BBC orchestra gets the music down in its essentials more or less right away, after which improvement is a lot slower, while ensembles like the BRSO and the SWR orchestra make a slower start and accelerate as rehearsals go on. They all get to more or less the same place by the time of the concert though. Note that I'm talking about new repertoire here (and orchestras that specialise in it). I don't think many orchestras any more really have to sightread Mahler for example.

That's a very good point, Richard - but sight reading is included in the Associated Board Exams and in Audtions for New Candidates by both orchestras and choral societies.
For many (including myself) it is the most important requirement to assess a candidate's suitability for appointment to a vacancy.

When I was awarded my Sterndale Bennet Open Scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, I'm quite sure that it was my sight reading of Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries", where the transposition changes every few bars (so what appears to be a leap down of a major 3rd is actually a leap down of a perfect 5th) which gave my candidacy an advantage over some very talented flautists, oboists and string players who were also competing for this prestigious award.

New music?
That's another subject which I had better not comment on.

HS

[Hornspieler]

I don't get the impression that it is. Having worked with the BBCSO several times, and several more or less equivalent orchestras in Germany, what you find is that the BBC orchestra gets the music down in its essentials more or less right away, after which improvement is a lot slower, while ensembles like the BRSO and the SWR orchestra make a slower start and accelerate as rehearsals go on. They all get to more or less the same place by the time of the concert though. Note that I'm talking about new repertoire here (and orchestras that specialise in it). I don't think many orchestras any more really have to sightread Mahler for example.

That's a very good point, Richard - but sight reading is included in the Associated Board Exams and in Audtions for New Candidates by both orchestras and choral societies.
For many (including myself) it is the most important requirement to assess a candidate's suitability for appointment to a vacancy.

When I was awarded my Sterndale Bennet Open Scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, I'm quite sure that it was my sight reading of Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries", where the transposition changes every few bars (so what appears to be a leap down of a major 3rd is actually a leap down of a perfect 5th) which gave my candidacy an advantage over some very talented flautists, oboists and string players who were also competing for this prestigious award.

New music?
That's another subject which I had better not comment on.

HS .

[Once Was 4]

That's a very good point, Richard - but sight reading is included in the Associated Board Exams and in Audtions for New Candidates by both orchestras and choral societies.
For many (including myself) it is the most important requirement to assess a candidate's suitability for appointment to a vacancy.

When I was awarded my Sterndale Bennet Open Scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, I'm quite sure that it was my sight reading of Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries", where the transposition changes every few bars (so what appears to be a leap down of a major 3rd is actually a leap down of a perfect 5th) which gave my candidacy an advantage over some very talented flautists, oboists and string players who were also competing for this prestigious award.

New music?
That's another subject which I had better not comment on.

HS .

I well remember the opera orchestra in which I was employed for 26 years being booked to do a symphony concert, including Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony and the Bruch Violin Concerto, in a prestigious concert hall with just the one three-hour rehearsal on the day. We moaned about this having not done a Tchaikovsky Symphony for some years and not done No 4 for over 10. The conductor was 'Tod' Handley who turned up late as usual and finished the rehearsal half an hour early. As far as I am aware, none of the large audience asked for their money back and the press review was positive. However the 'edge of the seat' playing that inevitably resulted translated in to excitement for the audience but unnecessary stress for the players. Mind you, we usually complained about too much rehearsal for the operas.

Some years ago a certain record company was recording a lot of English music in Eastern Europe with an English conductor and an orchestra which would record for an extra cup of coffee and all the grass that they could eat. However the conductor told me in a private conversation that this was self defeating: the money saved on recording fees was instead spent on rehearsals that a British orchestra would not have needed: the Eastern European players could not do the work as a 'rehearse/record' and needed extra rehearsals.

[ahinton]

I don't get the impression that it is. Having worked with the BBCSO several times, and several more or less equivalent orchestras in Germany, what you find is that the BBC orchestra gets the music down in its essentials more or less right away, after which improvement is a lot slower, while ensembles like the BRSO and the SWR orchestra make a slower start and accelerate as rehearsals go on. They all get to more or less the same place by the time of the concert though.

Interesting; what factors might you suppose account for this fundamental difference?

[ardcarp]

If I may chip in at a lower level of music-making, I have found that good British amateur/semi-pro orchestras make a very good fist at sight-reading through a new piece. This is definitely not so in France where I have worked with similar groups. This applies (with knobs on) to choirs. It seems that much more rehearsal time is expected. I seem to remember that Tim Reynish (who has worked a lot with French wind bands) mentioned the need for considerable 'note-bashing' time.

[Once Was 4]

That's a very good point, Richard - but sight reading is included in the Associated Board Exams and in Audtions for New Candidates by both orchestras and choral societies.
For many (including myself) it is the most important requirement to assess a candidate's suitability for appointment to a vacancy.

When I was awarded my Sterndale Bennet Open Scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, I'm quite sure that it was my sight reading of Wagner's "Ride of the Valkyries", where the transposition changes every few bars (so what appears to be a leap down of a major 3rd is actually a leap down of a perfect 5th) which gave my candidacy an advantage over some very talented flautists, oboists and string players who were also competing for this prestigious award.

New music?
That's another subject which I had better not comment on.

HS .

Which reminds me of being on an audition panel where a very fine Scottish horn player was given the 3rd horn part from the 'Riot Scene' in 'Die Meistersinger' during the sight reading test. He played a few notes, put his instrument down and said "I canna!" The first horn encouraged him to have another try but with the same result. Happily it was agreed that his talent, skill and personality was too good to hold that against him and we very much enjoyed working with him in the trial that followed.
But then there was the Scottish player of an earlier generation who realised that auditions were being held in London (for a job that he was not interested in) on the same day as a rugby match (in which he was very interested). So he applied for the job, attended the audition, played his test pieces but when the panel gave him some sight reading he said "no thank you, I have brought my own" and pulled some orchestral part or other out of his pocket and proceeded to play it. Of course he did not get the job but he got his expenses paid to go to the rugby match.
He told me in a private conversation once that, as a young lad, he applied successfully for a job at the BBC but in his then naivety thought that he should send some stamps to the BBC to refund them for the letter that they sent offering him the job. Their manager, a certain Mr Pratt, sent the stamps back with a covering letter saying that "the Corporation has sufficient stamps thank you!"