Budget cuts and music

[french frank]

More likely I think is that the teacher has left/is leaving, and getting a replacement will be hard, and so an "opportunity" to save money is being taken.

Save money for what? If the teacher hadn't left, presumably the money would have been spent on music. I didn't say the school's attitude was the problem, not the cuts, simply that one aspect is what you state: the music teacher leaving was an "opportunity" - which the school took.

[Dave2002]

Save money for what? If the teacher hadn't left, presumably the money would have been spent on music. I didn't say the school's attitude was the problem, not the cuts, simply that one aspect is what you state: the music teacher leaving was an "opportunity" - which the school took.

I don't think you understand that budgets in real terms decrease, so the money to run things properly gradually withers away. In a sensible and well funded world this wouldn't happen, but it does. If the budgets increase by less than the committed outgoings each year, then schools are going to run into deficit, and many are committed to paying staff increments. OK - you may notice that head teachers tend to get paid more, and are on incremental scales - so you may ask "why don't the senior staff give up their increments to keep music going?" but the world isn't like that. Also - though not always - some head teachers and senior staff really do pull their weight and keep things going to a high standard.

[MrGongGong]

In the world of qualifications, the term ‘vocation/vocational’ is used in opposition to or alongside with ‘academic’. Maths, science, history, or art and music etc. are seen as academic subjects. Vocational subjects are those that are directly linked to employment (although taking them is no guarantee for employment) examples are (at GCSE level):

APPLIED BUSINESS.
APPLIED ICT.
APPLIED SCIENCE.
ENGINEERING.
HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE.
LEISURE AND TOURISM.
MANUFACTURING

MR GG


The term 'vocational' when used in the context of education and qualification does not (usually) mean a job that is a 'vocation'. When I think about it, the word ‘vocation’ is rarely used in the sense umslopogaas suggests. Vocational means being directly related to employment.

I know
and it's WRONG
its a completely false opposition which needs to be challenged

But more importantly there are people who are removing music from education
and that is also WRONG and needs to be challenged and opposed

[MrGongGong]

Mr GG, your posts are always stimulating and interesting, but not always easy to understand. My dictionary says "vocation" is "a calling, a calling by God to his service". It appears to have a specifically religious dynamic. But surely, many musicians are passionate about music, but care little or nothing for God? If they said it was a "vocation", would they not simply mean that they did it because they liked it - and presumably, were good enough at it to not only enjoy it, but make a living out if it?

Doesn't have to be god or "God" or anything to do with religion

vocation
və(ʊ)ˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/Submit
noun
a strong feeling of suitability for a particular career or occupation.
"not all of us have a vocation to be nurses or doctors"
synonyms: calling, life's work, mission, purpose, function, position, niche; More
a person's employment or main occupation, especially regarded as worthy and requiring dedication.
"her vocation as a poet"

Music IS vocational

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Save money for what? If the teacher hadn't left, presumably the money would have been spent on music. I didn't say the school's attitude was the problem, not the cuts, simply that one aspect is what you state: the music teacher leaving was an "opportunity" - which the school took.

Yes - this is very clear from the Head's comments in the link:

I don't think we want to reduce any subject provision. Unfortunately in this situation I have a music teacher who left, so that has made me have to review the situation. By doing this with music, we can be creative, and we can continue to protect all the other subjects,"

"Creative"!!!

And it's not just Music - funding cuts mean that staff from many subject areas are being reduced; mostly the "Creative"/Expressive areas, but even English & Maths Departments are having staffing reductions, with increased Exam. class sizes, and extra teaching commitments shared between the remaining teachers. As with Hospitals, there is a very real danger of a funding/staff shortage linked catastrophe looming in our state schools.

[P. G. Tipps]

Doesn't have to be god or "God" or anything to do with religion. Music IS vocational

Of course, music doesn't have to have anything to do with God, Mr GG. Indeed some music conceivably might be considered the work of the Devil. However, a lot of music throughout history has had everything to do with God. The clue to some of that might be in the very title of a particular piece!

As to 'a vocation' the word itself originated in Christianity indicating a religious calling. Oh, I know, perish the very thought, Mr GG, but there you go.

Of course, as ff herself pointed out in another thread, words do change their meaning. Now it apparently has come to mean just about anything that one does in work or as a hobby.

However, I confess to being more of an insufferable traditionalist, and think the word should also indicate at least a sense of duty and sacrifice in the cause of service to others as much as one's chosen career or passion for a particular activity. After all, that was the original intention of the word. If it doesn't we may as well bin the word as it has become ... well, just another word meaning not very much at all?

So whilst you may strongly insist that music IS a vocation I can only respond by asking you then what makes it different from being a plumber, doctor, gardener or, indeed, a faithful supporter of a proud football team like Tranmere Rovers? I think we are entitled to know what you actually mean by the use of this now largely meaningless word, Mr GG!

PS ... as to the main topic, I would be interested to learn exactly what subjects remain on the curriculum at those schools which plan to discontinue teaching music due to 'budget cuts'.

Don't worry, I am quite prepared to be horrified!

[MrGongGong]

I think (and some folks would rather spend months discussing the finer points of linguistics and i'm not going there as Music Education is far more important than the origins of words!) there is an underlying misunderstanding about the nature of human activity in the obsession with dividing everything into two supposedly "opposing" things.
In education we have it all the time in the
"academic" vs "practical" idea
and
"vocational" (in the way it is used) and "academic"

BOTH of these are, to put it bluntly, bullshit. But people, especially those in politics like to use them all the time.
Music has moved from being an "academic" subject (those of us who remember O level "musicology" will know all too well, I don't remember making any sounds in my O level, not because we were studying Cage !) to a "practical" one... The positive side of this is that youngsters learn by doing, the downside is that it is seen to be less of an "intellectual" thing so easy to get rid of.

What (IMV) is the real problem is the WHOLE way in which things are presented in the first place.
But, sadly, we live in a time where EVERYTHING has to be seen, and sold, in these ways... I'm often using the analogy of spending a day at the beach. If you hang on long enough the tide will come back in.... Sadly for many youngsters in England (and it is a bit different in Scotland and Wales) they are at schools where there is NO music at all.

[french frank]

there is an underlying misunderstanding about the nature of human activity in the obsession with dividing everything into two supposedly "opposing" things.

If you make dogmatic statements, you shouldn't be surprised if people want to take you up on them. If they're not fundamental to your argument, it's better not to pontificate.

"Categorization is fundamental to all higher cognitive activity": Linguistic categorization, John R Taylor. Or 'this is the same as that, but different from something else' is precisely how humans understand and communicate ideas.

[MrGongGong]

If you make dogmatic statements, you shouldn't be surprised if people want to take you up on them. If they're not fundamental to your argument, it's better not to pontificate.

"Categorization is fundamental to all higher cognitive activity": Linguistic categorization, John R Taylor. Or 'this is the same as that, but different from something else' is precisely how humans understand and communicate ideas.

I might be "dogmatic" but really i'm more "incandescent" with rage at how music education is being destroyed by stupid people

Yes, categorisation is a fundamental thing. BUT, (and i'm not a philosopher, linguist or cognitive scientist so would have to ask someone who is to really understand these thing) what seems to be happening is that the obsession with simplistic divisions which stick (which is maybe ? more the point, it's not as if people are doing these splits for the purposes of gaining understanding or revealing interesting things) are being used to deny opportunity.

If I spent the day re-reading Adorno I would probably have something to say about "constellations" but that's a distant memory !

I was at a secondary school last Thursday working with GCSE composition students. We had a conversation about "subjects" after one of them said that one of the pieces I had played as an example was more to do with "science" than "music". Youngsters are often more than able to embrace multiple understandings than those in charge of education.

[french frank]

Sometimes one just has to bite one's tongue

[MrGongGong]

My apologies. What I should have written was 'it is not obviously vocational'. in the way that Metalwork, Woodwork and Car Maintenance might be considered 'vocational'. Music is obviously a vocation for some but the education system would struggle to advise someone who wanted to be a musician; it would have less of a problem placing someone who wanted to be a plumber or an electrician.

Yes, the education system does (and always has) struggled with people who want to do music
some enlightened teachers ask musicians to talk to their students
but that doesn't always go down with parents who often want their precious little offspring to have "proper" jobs

[Richard Barrett]

Does this thread really have to consist of silly arguments as to what "vocational" means? These days its meaning, whatever its etymology, is an educational subject leading to the kind of job that the ruling class finds useful, although (recalling David Graeber's classic article) the fact that society seems to value corporate lawyers more than poets could be seen as a sign of something fundamentally wrong with those values.

[Bryn]

Does this thread really have to consist of silly arguments as to what "vocational" means? These days its meaning, whatever its etymology, is an educational subject leading to the kind of job that the ruling class finds useful, although (recalling David Graeber's classic article) the fact that society seems to value corporate lawyers more than poets could be seen as a sign of something fundamentally wrong with those values.

A somewhat different viewpoint, from one at the chalkface.

The real worry, as far as I am concerned, is that the positive impact of music eduction on all other 'subject' areas of the curriculum is well researched but that very research is apparently easily ignored.

[DracoM]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/jul/02/ultra-sound-why-music-means-so-much-to-us

[doversoul1]

I might be "dogmatic" but really i'm more "incandescent" with rage at how music education is being destroyed by stupid people

Yes, categorisation is a fundamental thing. BUT, (and i'm not a philosopher, linguist or cognitive scientist so would have to ask someone who is to really understand these thing) what seems to be happening is that the obsession with simplistic divisions which stick (which is maybe ? more the point, it's not as if people are doing these splits for the purposes of gaining understanding or revealing interesting things) are being used to deny opportunity.

If I spent the day re-reading Adorno I would probably have something to say about "constellations" but that's a distant memory !

I was at a secondary school last Thursday working with GCSE composition students. We had a conversation about "subjects" after one of them said that one of the pieces I had played as an example was more to do with "science" than "music". Youngsters are often more than able to embrace multiple understandings than those in charge of education.

In the days of school certificate, children learned practical skills such as needle work and wood work along with academic subjects (maths, science etc.). Learning about jobs were done after children left school and (usually) got jobs.

In the context of education today, which is what this discussion is about, practical is not the same as vocational, and I think you (one) can say that it has nothing to do with vocation. School leavers can have any amount of skills to produce music of all kinds and show understanding about many different things but these qualities have no direct link to any particular jobs, most likely to be at NQF level 1 &2*, therefore not qualified as vocational.
* National Qualification Framework

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_qualifications_frameworks_in_the_United_Kingdom

I’m sure most, if not all of us here on the forum would agree with you that it is a criminal thing to deprive children of music education but unless you argue in their terms, you won’t get anywhere. What we should be insisting is not whether music is vocational or not but that school should be the place of education and not a subdivision of Job Centre.

I think the word vocational became much more widely used after NVQs (National Vocational Qualifications) were introduced back in the 1980s. I see this as the beginning of the academic-vocational division as it is today.