Arts Council Announcement today

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'm not sure about that. I would say things are moving in that direction.

I hope so.

But anyway, as I said in another context, the UK is a rich country by any standards. There's plenty of cash hanging around to buy a few extra parliamentary votes for a failing government, for example. It's more a question of government priorities than anything else. What "public support" seems to be, for this or that, is largely the result of leading questions about carefully selected issues angled towards getting a certain kind of answer. In "the arts" I would say the solution is not so much to concentrate support in either "centres of excellence" or community-based work, for example, but to spread it between them so that they aren't seen as two separate sectors in competition with one another.

- and raise the amount of money available for all of them. I forgot to add to the sums I offered earlier, the revenue raised (or "paid back" as some people might see it) from VAT on ticket sales.

[Sir Velo]

There is the question of whether we see ourselves as out for what we can get, or as members of a society with some kind of responsibility towards other members individually and collectively. The former, in the UK at least, seems to be associated with older people and the latter with younger. Which is just as well because it would be good if there were a future.

Not necessarily. It's more of a question of wanting to retain a degree of control over how our earnings are spent, and making those who spend it more accountable.

I'm afraid I'm less optimistic than you re your latter point. The same was said about the younger generation back in the 70s, 80s, 90s (and I'm sure from time immemorial) and look what we've ended up with!

Essentially, once young people take on responsibilities (eg work, mortgage, family etc) that idealism is kicked into touch (with a few exceptions of course). What someone needs to do is do a survey of how people vote when they're in their twenties and then check again when they're in their 40s. 50s etc.

[teamsaint]

Not necessarily. It's more of a question of wanting to retain a degree of control over how our earnings are spent, and making those who spend it more accountable.

I'm afraid I'm less optimistic than you re your latter point. The same was said about the younger generation back in the 70s, 80s, 90s (and I'm sure from time immemorial) and look what we've ended up with!

Essentially, once young people take on responsibilities (eg work, mortgage, family etc) that idealism is kicked into touch (with a few exceptions of course). What someone needs to do is do a survey of how people vote when they're in their twenties and then check again when they're in their 40s. 50s etc.

Most of them can't get mortages . Those that can need a massive hand from parents with deposits.
Home ownership levels are collapsing.

On the subject of trusting governments to spend our cash wisely, I think that is a right that recent governments have either abdicated, or willfully abandoned.
In my view,( and it's just my view obviously) I don't trust May, Blair or others to spend yet more tax money.
On the other hand, given the right manifesto, I might trust a Corbyn government to spend, say, double the current arts budget, and to reallocate the nuclear apocalypse budget to actually useful things like housing.

[Richard Barrett]

Essentially, once young people take on responsibilities (eg work, mortgage, family etc) that idealism is kicked into touch (with a few exceptions of course). What someone needs to do is do a survey of how people vote when they're in their twenties and then check again when they're in their 40s. 50s etc.

"Essentially". Retaining principles keeps you young.

[MrGongGong]

Essentially, once young people take on responsibilities (eg work, mortgage, family etc) that idealism is kicked into touch (with a few exceptions of course). .

Really?
Is that what is called "growing up" ?
The bit when people start to believe the bullshit about how being a musician could be a nice "hobby" or "something to fall back on" ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Most of them can't get mortages . Those that can need a massive hand from parents with deposits.

And many of them begin working life in debt from their Student Loans. There might have been something in SirV's comments thirty and more years ago, but the break-up of the Welfare State since the '80s has resulted in a split in society on age lines that makes that of the '60s look positively benign. Younger voters are experiencing an economic imbalance (demands on their resources beyond anything that their parents ever had to face) and are questioning how the mainstream political ideology of (let's face it) my generation created such demands on them - and I hope that this will result in a rejection of that ideology.

[jean]

Well, I hope Corbyn has as little in common with old Militant as he says, since they wanted to stop funding anything ther could be called 'high' culture.

It's why the govt. stepped in and took over Liverpool's museums and galleries.

[Stanfordian]

Not necessarily. It's more of a question of wanting to retain a degree of control over how our earnings are spent, and making those who spend it more accountable.

I'm afraid I'm less optimistic than you re your latter point. The same was said about the younger generation back in the 70s, 80s, 90s (and I'm sure from time immemorial) and look what we've ended up with!

Essentially, once young people take on responsibilities (eg work, mortgage, family etc) that idealism is kicked into touch (with a few exceptions of course). What someone needs to do is do a survey of how people vote when they're in their twenties and then check again when they're in their 40s. 50s etc.

Youthful idealism soon wanes when election promises are proved to be nothing of the sort or unsustainable.

[Richard Barrett]

Younger voters are experiencing an economic imbalance (demands on their resources beyond anything that their parents ever had to face)

And which of course they themselves had no say in. In view of what Sir Velo and Stanfordian have said I think there's a case for instituting a maximum voting age. Deciding what is "idealistic" and what "sustainable" should perhaps not be left to the most jaded sectors of society!

[Richard Barrett]

Well, I hope Corbyn has as little in common with old Militant as he says

That's a really silly thing to say, Jean. He has consistently argued for increases in arts funding, music in schools etc.

[vinteuil]

... I think there's a case for instituting a maximum voting age. Deciding what is "idealistic" and what "sustainable" should perhaps not be left to the most jaded sectors of society!

I agree. Those who will live in this European Continent over the next lifetime should have decided its future, not us crumblies (who have benefited from all that the EU gave us )

I reached my 65th birthday the day before this last pathetic General Election. I had said that those over 65 didn't really deserve a vote - but I was in this case happy to go out and vote for our candidate.

I don't think I was ever particularly 'idealistic' when I was younger - I have always been pretty sceptical in my take on the world. But my principles were on the left when I first voted, and they really haven't changed much in the last half-century...


.

[jean]

It is not 'silly'. Militant are very anxious to claim him. He needs to keep his distance from them - that's all I'm saying.

[Richard Barrett]

It is not 'silly'. Militant are very anxious to claim him. He needs to keep his distance from them - that's all I'm saying.

As you must presumably be aware, Militant as such doesn't even exist. The remaining splinters of it are too small to make any difference to anything. So it doesn't really matter what they claim.

[jean]

The 'remaining splinters' are out distributing literature at Corbyn rallies. There's a vein of philistinism on the Left that should give us all pause (that's all I'm saying).

[Pulcinella]

As jean suggests (and she does live in Liverpool, after all, where Derek Hatton ruled the roost at one point), there may well still be a 'tendency'.