Arts Council Announcement today

[Alain Maréchal]

Ouch!
Dismal, perhaps (it's certainly been grey and raining most of the day here in York, today), but from reading postings on this forum, Alain, you must be aware of the fact that there is much cultural excellence outside London: the concert I'm singing in here in York on Saturday night, for instance! ()

With the Bournemouth, Birmingham, Liverpool, and Manchester orchestras for starters, and ferney's beloved Opera North (which I've just booked to see in October), we provincial chaps can rightly quite often feel superior to the poor folk in the smoke of the capital.

It is the fact that they must be highlighted which damns itself: I do not have to announce events happening in the French Regions - I take it for granted that they will be happening, because the habit of cultural events is under the national skin, not something to be surprised about. Nobody complained at the cost of the Lyon Opera rebuild - they take pride in it.

I will make one final remark and then avoid anything political and stick to "fun" posts. If you wonder why, in the Brexit negotiations, there seems to be general frustration with the British attitude, it is the one thing that I notice more and more: as I have mentioned elsewhere, the British like everything cheap - low wages, low taxes, low benefits, low costs, everything at cut price and save a few pounds. Even one board member owned to doing three technical pieces of work himself rather than employ professionals. I am sad to see it. I just do not understand you any more.

[teamsaint]

It is the fact that they must be highlighted which damns itself: I do not have to announce events happening in the French Regions - I take it for granted that they will be happening, because the habit of cultural events is under the national skin, not something to be surprised about. Nobody complained at the cost of the Lyon Opera rebuild - they take pride in it.

I will make one final remark and then avoid anything political and stick to "fun" posts. If you wonder why, in the Brexit negotiations, there seems to be general frustration with the British attitude, it is the one thing that I notice more and more: as I have mentioned elsewhere, the British like everything cheap - low wages, low taxes, low benefits, low costs, everything at cut price and save a few pounds. Even one board member owned to doing three technical pieces of work himself rather than employ professionals. I am sad to see it. I just do not understand you any more.

It would be better if you stick around to discuss and defend your accusations really.

Or not make them in the first place, if you are keen to stick to " fun" posts,which is entirely reasonable.

In an awful lot of situations, the things you suggest simply do not apply.

just as an example, we like expensive german cars. We like them more than any other country in Europe.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/car-industry-would-bounce-back-experts-say-548880

Again, for better or worse.

Low taxes ? take on a bit of student debt, earn £20k a year, and you'll have deductions at your marginal rate of 40%.

[Serial_Apologist]

It would be better if you stick around to discuss and defend your accusations really.

Or not make them in the first place, if you are keen to stick to " fun" posts,which is entirely reasonable.

In an awful lot of situations, the things you suggest simply do not apply.

just as an example, we like expensive german cars. We like them more than any other country in Europe.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/companies-markets/car-industry-would-bounce-back-experts-say-548880

Again, for better or worse.

Low taxes ? take on a bit of student debt, earn £20k a year, and you'll have deductions at your marginal rate of 40%.

I must have been blind, never having had you down as a consumerist, teamy - knowing as you must much individual spending in the UK to be on the "never-never" - as Mark Carney has anxiously pointed out today. A significant marker of difference between our economic model and France (and Continental Europe as a whole) is "our" obsession with home ownership, which accounts for a sizeable proportion of our debt, I would have thought; but tell me if I'm wrong.

[teamsaint]

I must have been blind, never having had you down as a consumerist, teamy - knowing as you must much individual spending in the UK to be on the "never-never" - as Mark Carney has anxiously pointed out today. A significant marker of difference between our economic model and France (and Continental Europe as a whole) is "our" obsession with home ownership, which accounts for a sizeable proportion of our debt, I would have thought; but tell me if I'm wrong.

Sorry, I'm not really sure what your point is, S-A , in the context of the discussion.

Yes, we spend a lot, don't save, buy things out of our housing capital " wealth", have high personal debt levels. I'm not supporting or attacking those things per se, just trying to paint a fair picture ( EG by highlighting our low savings ratio) of how things are here.

The home ownership thing is becoming less relevant over time, as home ownership levels collapse.
Our obsession is also becoming something of a myth....only the Germans in Europe have substantially lower Home ownership levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

I'm not sure how anybody can square the circle of being a " tight little island", when, at the personal finance level, the exact opposite is true.

Lets discuss foreign aid now.


( I don't think I'm a consumerist, BTW, although I do think people should buy more books.......)

Edit: I think we can safely say we are off topic now.....

[MrGongGong]

How about talking about the ACE funding announcement ?

[Richard Barrett]

Yes instead of some kind of competition to see which of the UK and France is more philistine... in my experience cultural support in France is better but VERY centralised. Other European countries put both to shame.

So MrGG, I don't really have much of a handle on how this compares to previous distributions, what do you think?

[Conchis]

Yes instead of some kind of competition to see which of the UK and France is more philistine... in my experience cultural support in France is better but VERY centralised. Other European countries put both to shame.

So MrGG, I don't really have much of a handle on how this compares to previous distributions, what do you think?

Doesn't France have a tradition of funding individuals (i.e.. Peter Brook) rather than institutions?

[MrGongGong]

Yes instead of some kind of competition to see which of the UK and France is more philistine... in my experience cultural support in France is better but VERY centralised. Other European countries put both to shame.

So MrGG, I don't really have much of a handle on how this compares to previous distributions, what do you think?

If we believe our French chum everywhere outside of London is crap ..... which is great as the rest of us don't have to put up with him at HCMF or anywhere else we might go


BUT I think the move away from London is a very good thing
I'm not sure whether many of the things which are now in the ACE (Museums for example) mean that there is less money for things like music ?
but there are some interesting new NPO music organisations

[teamsaint]

If we believe our French chum everywhere outside of London is crap ..... which is great as the rest of us don't have to put up with him at HCMF or anywhere else we might go


BUT I think the move away from London is a very good thing
I'm not sure whether many of the things which are now in the ACE (Museums for example) mean that there is less money for things like music ?
but there are some interesting new NPO music organisations

The Museum thing does seem to have been willfully obscure, which gives rise to suspicions about money being reallocted.

Interesting that the SBC has reduced( slightly) funding, as , certainly as a social venue it seems to be flourishing. Maybe a" victim" of its own success? Which I suppose wouldn't be the worst way of dealing with inevitably limited resources?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Alain's intemperate and inaccurate comment on cultural life outside London distracted from his very pertinent point that we don't pay enough Tax to fund public services - and there is, as yet, insufficient public support for any change to this situation. The misleading argument that "Hospitals/Schools need it more" (yes, of course they do - but there could be enough to permit both better funding for Hospitals, Schools etc as well as generous Arts funding with imaginative accountancy and a more generous and socially responsible attitude from the financially better off).

But I think that there is a parallel misleading argument in resenting money that goes to London-based institutions: the proportion of the total available budget is/has been heinous, but the ROH (for example) doesn't get more than it needs to finance an international Opera company, and cuts to its budget are not something we should be welcoming. As Alain suggests, there seems to be a contempt amongst the wider public for funding Arts and Cultural activities in English-speaking countries - a lack of belief that "Culture" is important; that it's just a matter of "hobbies". Shifting the meagre sums available around whilst avoiding providing the extra money necessary doesn't raise my spirits very much - although I'm very, very glad to see the extra funding for many of the companies mentioned in the newspaper reports.

(How much does Arts Council England give to HCMF? £275,000. About as much as it costs to resurface 100 metres of motorway. Check my sums, please, but £1.1 billion divided by population of UK (65.5 million) = 17p; over three years = a little less than 6p per person per year? )

[Richard Barrett]

there is, as yet, insufficient public support for any change to this situation

I'm not sure about that. I would say things are moving in that direction. But anyway, as I said in another context, the UK is a rich country by any standards. There's plenty of cash hanging around to buy a few extra parliamentary votes for a failing government, for example. It's more a question of government priorities than anything else. What "public support" seems to be, for this or that, is largely the result of leading questions about carefully selected issues angled towards getting a certain kind of answer. In "the arts" I would say the solution is not so much to concentrate support in either "centres of excellence" or community-based work, for example, but to spread it between them so that they aren't seen as two separate sectors in competition with one another.

[Sir Velo]

When I worked, on secondment from my French employer, to the NHS, I was asked why my department's budget was so high (it is true we did not see patients, but I think our service was valuable.) The usual gripe was "we could open xxx beds and do xxx hips replacement for that money!". My standard reply was "no doubt, but you wouldn't, would you?"

Are you making the heretical suggestion that the NHS is not the envy of the world, as we Britons are always being told?

[Sir Velo]

The problem, I would suggest, is not the % of GDP, but the quantum of GDP. Get out there and spend, so your taxes can be used. I am happy to pay tax at the levels imposed in France because I see it spent, for example, on tickets for students at ONLyon which cost 4 Euros. I'm also happy to be defended.

An analogy: I frequently found in the UK complaints at the cost of certain under-performing civil servants. The reaction in France is the opposite, where they ask if they are paying enough to get the appropriate calibre of official.

Another analogy: would you be happy handing over half your pay packet each month to someone you've never met to let them spend it on what they like?

[Richard Barrett]

Another analogy: would you be happy handing over half your pay packet each month to someone you've never met to let them spend it on what they like?

There is the question of whether we see ourselves as out for what we can get, or as members of a society with some kind of responsibility towards other members individually and collectively. The former, in the UK at least, seems to be associated with older people and the latter with younger. Which is just as well because it would be good if there were a future.

[MrGongGong]

The Museum thing does seem to have been willfully obscure, which gives rise to suspicions about money being reallocted.

Interesting that the SBC has reduced( slightly) funding, as , certainly as a social venue it seems to be flourishing. Maybe a" victim" of its own success? Which I suppose wouldn't be the worst way of dealing with inevitably limited resources?

The SBC, ROH and NT knew they were getting a 3% cut
it was part of the rebalancing of funding away from the usual suspects

This is a good start BUT still there is too much concentration in London (even though many of us work there lots of the time !)
one real issue that historically hasn't been addressed is London Orchestras, last time there was a plan to stop funding one of them there was such a row (mostly from Mr Mellor) that several arts council folks were made to resign and the decision was overturned.
Even though orchestral music is wonderful it does get too much funding from ACE (in England, of course) compared to other areas of music.