Order of movements in Mahler 6

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I understand (read "I'm sure I've read somewhere") that many studio recordings of multi-movement works were recorded over several sessions, with Movements recorded according to Sessions timetables, rather than score order. Details on CD booklets suggest that not merely were Symphony movements recorded weeks apart from their "neighbours", but that other works by other composers were recorded "in between".

It doesn't (or hasn't yet!) affected my listening any more than knowing that "corrections" have been edited within the Movements themselves (I feel much happier with the decades-later added Horn in the Scherzo of the Barbirolli Mahler #5 than with the "authentic" original, for example). I know that lots of jiggery-pokery happens in the studio - as long as the results aren't too obvious, it doesn't "feature" in my listening.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Did I just use the expression "jiggery-pokery"?


Put me in a bath chair, cover my legs with a blanket and just let me quietly sit out in the garden ...

[ahinton]

Did I just use the expression "jiggery-pokery"?

Mahler's Sixth Symphony has no jig movement and, if it did, I would't have any idea between which of its other movements it should best be placed; moreover, it calls for a large hammer rather than a poker. So whilst you did indeed use that expression, its direct relevance to the vexed and often vexing issue of the order of the middle movements of that symphpony remains well less than clear.

Do you suppose, incidentally, that David Matthews has the order of movements in his Sixth Symphony correct or might he change it at some point?

[Nick Armstrong]

Mahler's Sixth Symphony has no jig movement and, if it did, I would't have any idea between which of its other movements it should best be placed; moreover, it calls for a large hammer rather than a poker. So whilst you did indeed use that expression, its direct relevance to the vexed and often vexing issue of the order of the middle movements of that symphpony remains well less than clear.

A classic example of gossamer Hinton wit !!

It's Andante - Scherzo on t'wireless at t'moment.... but without the Allegro energico or the Finale !!!!!!

[Richard Barrett]

many studio recordings of multi-movement works were recorded over several sessions

Quite. And very many "live" recordings are patched up with bits taken from the dress rehearsal. And of course it's almost always impossible to tell, if musicians and engineers are doing their job. One person's jiggery-pokery (I think you should be thanked for returning this excellent turn of phrase to circulation ) is another's practical music-making with the recording as the artistic aim.

[Beef Oven!]

Quite. And very many "live" recordings are patched up with bits taken from the dress rehearsal. And of course it's almost always impossible to tell, if musicians and engineers are doing their job. One person's jiggery-pokery (I think you should be thanked for returning this excellent turn of phrase to circulation ) is another's practical music-making with the recording as the artistic aim.

One reason why Deep Purple's 'Made In Japan' is such an amazing album - put straight onto the LP from the gig, warts 'n' all.

[Bryn]

... (I think you should be thanked for returning this excellent turn of phrase to circulation ) ...

A cursory search of this forum reveals at least 14 earlier occurrences of the phrase, and not only from fg. [Posted in jigged up poker-face mode.]

[ahinton]

Quite. And very many "live" recordings are patched up with bits taken from the dress rehearsal. And of course it's almost always impossible to tell, if musicians and engineers are doing their job. One person's jiggery-pokery (I think you should be thanked for returning this excellent turn of phrase to circulation ) is another's practical music-making with the recording as the artistic aim.

The remaining issue here, however, is that, whilst both you and fhg are indeed correct in what you write about this, the conductor presumably makes a decision on the middle movement order in the finished product whether the symphony's recorded in this piecemeal way or right through from start to finish, just as he/she will decide on the order to adopt when performing it live in front of an audience.

It might be interesting to hear what conductors who have performed the symphony both ways have to say about this issue.

[Bryn]

Quite. And very many "live" recordings are patched up with bits taken from the dress rehearsal. ...

An interesting example is the 2012 HCMF 'live' recording of Feldman's For Philip Guston (Simon Allen, Carla Rees, John Tilbury) on the ATOPOS label. Carla had a particularly bad cough at the time, so much of the issued recording comes from rehearsal takes. However, it was decided that the closing section should be taken from the concert performance in order to reflect the state of near exhaustion of the performers after nigh on five hours.

[ahinton]

An interesting example is the 2012 HCMF 'live' recording of Feldman's For Philip Guston (Simon Allen, Carla Rees, John Tilbury) on the ATOPOS label. Carla had a particularly bad cough at the time, so much of the issued recording comes from rehearsal takes. However, it was decided that the closing section should be taken from the concert performance in order to reflect the state of near exhaustion of the performers after nigh on five hours.

Interesting as that is, it's not obvious what bearing it (or other similar examples) might have on the order of the middle movements in Mahler 6; given that, however it's recorded, a decision on this will have had to be taken by the conductor prior to a live performance.

[vinteuil]

... I'm just a little surprised that music critics seem to find it hard to accept that there might be an unsolvable mutability as to the nature of a 'right text' here. In the parallel field of lit: crit: the tussle as to what the 'right' versions of, say, Wordsworth or Coleridge poems might be has been going on for generations - a systole/diastole between opting for 'first versions' and 'last versions' with (many) variants in between.

An exemplary work might be Jack Stillinger: "Coleridge & Textual Instability - the Multiple Versions of the Major Poems". *

Unsettling though it is, I have had to accept that there is no one 'right text' - and learn to live with - and enjoy - the fruitfulness of many possibles.

* http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0195085833

[Bryn]

Interesting as that is, it's not obvious what bearing it (or other similar examples) might have on the order of the middle movements in Mahler 6; given that, however it's recorded, a decision on this will have had to be taken by the conductor prior to a live performance.

O.k., back on topic, Zemlinsky's piano four hands version of the symphony has, in the score available via imslp, the middle movements in the order II. Andante moderato, III. Scherzo: Wuchtig. However the only recording I have been able to find of it has the order II. Scherzo: Wuchtig, III. Andante moderato.

[vinteuil]

O.k., back on topic, Zemlinsky's piano four hands version of the symphony has, in the score available via imslp, the middle movements in the order II. Andante moderato, III. Scherzo: Wuchtig. However the only recording I have been able to find of it has the order II. Scherzo: Wuchtig, III. Andante moderato.

... the disc I have of the piano duo Zenker/Trenkner performing the Zemlinsky transcription has the Andante followed by the Scherzo.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00000K384

In the liner notes: " Zemlinsky's four-handed version of the symphony appeared in the same year as the orchestral premiere. Mahler had changed the original order of the movements ... for a short time when Zemlinsky produced his transcription. The Andante had been placed before the Scherzo, but the third hammer blow had not yet been eliminated from the Finale. Mahler and Zemlinsky evidently performed the piano version at Mahler's home with Arnold Schonberg in attendance (cf. Gustav Mahler, Letters nos. 349-50, Vienna, 1982)."

[Bryn]

... the disc I have of the piano duo Zenker/Trenkner doing this has the Andante followed by the Scherzo.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00000K384

... but this is I think the Casella transcription

Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

CD versions of the first complete recording of the Sixth (Adler and the VSO in 1951) put the Scherzo third.