Davey Speaks

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Is anyone suggesting that the Avant Garde is possibly the salvation of Classical Music?

Well, it always has been so far!

My feeling is that Classical Music has got to get down to some extremely basic common denominators with other forms of music to ensure a healthy future.

My concern is that so much of it already has.

What does that mean to you? Because to me it seems to mean that it's a "healthy" situation if artists are restricted to a common denominator of any kind. That doesn't sound at all healthy to me. I was talking at the weekend to a friend who is a flute teacher in state secondary schools (not in the UK, needless to say) who was bemoaning the fact that these days teenagers' attention spans and demand for instant gratification have advanced to the point that if they aren't able to play a piece right away they give up trying, and eventually give up the instrument altogether. Maybe it would be "healthy" for flute students only to play pieces that can be sight read by beginners? because that's the common denominator here. At a certain point it's necessary to say, well, some things are not so easy to get into, and there should be less concentration on making them easier and more on encouraging people to use their intelligence and imagination.

Perfectly put.

[french frank]

Is anyone suggesting that the Avant Garde is possibly the salvation of Classical Music?

Well, I certainly wasn't suggesting that Radio 1 or 6 Music should have a regular programme of 19th-c. symphonies or a short series on the classical string quartet.

[french frank]

I was talking at the weekend to a friend who is a flute teacher in state secondary schools (not in the UK, needless to say) who was bemoaning the fact that these days teenagers' attention spans and demand for instant gratification have advanced to the point that if they aren't able to play a piece right away they give up trying, and eventually give up the instrument altogether [ … ] At a certain point it's necessary to say, well, some things are not so easy to get into, and there should be less concentration on making them easier and more on encouraging people to use their intelligence and imagination.

He who?

He also spoke of the challenges of providing classical music for a modern audience, with short attention spans and an “instant gratification” culture making it more difficult for people to listen to lengthy pieces. [ … ] He added that performances such as the John Wilson Orchestra’s Hollywood Rhapsody Prom were now “really key” in Radio 3’s audience development strategy, with young people finding their way into things that would “otherwise feel forbidding”.

Erm …

My alternative to putting Hollywood Rhapsody on Radio 3 was to put something contemporary and more demanding on Radio 1.

[Quarky]

Will explain my cryptic comment later tonight/ tomorrow morning - busy today.

[Lat-Literal]

Which means what?

Perhaps I should expand on that question. What does that mean to you? Because to me it seems to mean that it's a "healthy" situation if artists are restricted to a common denominator of any kind. That doesn't sound at all healthy to me. I was talking at the weekend to a friend who is a flute teacher in state secondary schools (not in the UK, needless to say) who was bemoaning the fact that these days teenagers' attention spans and demand for instant gratification have advanced to the point that if they aren't able to play a piece right away they give up trying, and eventually give up the instrument altogether. Maybe it would be "healthy" for flute students only to play pieces that can be sight read by beginners? because that's the common denominator here. At a certain point it's necessary to say, well, some things are not so easy to get into, and there should be less concentration on making them easier and more on encouraging people to use their intelligence and imagination.

Very fair points in the main but can I please make a distinction between participation in music and musical appreciation. The two don't always go hand in hand. I have given up on almost everything manual throughout my life including any idea that I could ever play a musical instrument well but I do have a capacity to absorb new things even in my sixth decade and I often work hard on those in interest terms where such things originally strike me as difficult. Having said as much, there is an argument re today's young people that their capacity for lengthy attention is dependent on more active participation. To turn Twitter on its head and view it as quite a cerebral part of modern technology - no, honestly - the average person who tweets spends just one minute of each day on it and most of that is reading. In contrast, computer gaming folk spend hours and hours on those games.

[MrGongGong]

He self-evidently isn't coming from the same place as the avantgardista. As a broadcaster he has a particular job to fulfil - and the article probably sprang from talking with Adams last month at the Barbican where Adams was conducting Doctor Atomic. I agree with Bryn that JA sounds like Lebrecht.

Yet, so far little on the Varèse evening except the astounding revelation that Martin Handley got something wrong.

His basic premise that "Classical Music" is somehow more complex and "difficult" than other musics is simply simplistic nonsense.

I haven't heard the Adams interview but this

Classical music audiences were “the most timid and risk-averse” of any arts audience, said Adams.

Seems fairly accurate in my experience

[teamsaint]

His basic premise that "Classical Music" is somehow more complex and "difficult" than other musics is simply simplistic nonsense.

I haven't heard the Adams interview but this

Classical music audiences were “the most timid and risk-averse” of any arts audience, said Adams.

Seems fairly accurate in my experience

I wouldn't agree. Folk and rock audiences seem to me to be at least as risk averse, if such a judgement can be sensibly and fairly made.
Which it probably can't, actually.

[Quarky]

Which means what?

Perhaps I should expand on that question. What does that mean to you?

Fully accepting Ferney's demolition of my premise, I think my current feelings about Classical music are far better expressed by Alan Davey:

Young people’s brains aren’t experiencing a backward evolution. Their ability to articulate points of rhythm, melody and the flow of words in musical genres they have made or developed themselves prove that, as human beings, our urge for musical expression and facility lies deep. Young people are not afraid of things that need to be worked through. Complexity, curiosity and adventure is the new counter-culture.

For decades, the debate about the arts in England has boiled down to a dreary see-saw between “is it elitist?” and “is it dumbed down?” But this new audience of people who love the discovery of the new and the complex simply refuse to see their passions in such binary terms. I believe we’re heading towards a boundary-less age of music, where newer generations happily skate between classical and electronic, rock and pop, jazz and world music. With one bound, they have broken free from the constraints my generation placed upon itself. All they ask in return is authenticity of intention and execution.

On Varèse, the list of composers claiming to be influenced by him seems like a roll-call of composers of the second half of the 20th Century. But as you state in the Varèse thread:

... or is it that most of the music that was composed last week sounds like it comes from before Varèse existed...?

That seems to me a serious issue!

[Serial_Apologist]

I believe we’re heading towards a boundary-less age of music, where newer generations happily skate between classical and electronic, rock and pop, jazz and world music. With one bound, they have broken free from the constraints my generation placed upon itself. All they ask in return is authenticity of intention and execution.

All the skating in the world amounts to little when the ice is melting.

[french frank]

His basic premise that "Classical Music" is somehow more complex and "difficult" than other musics is simply simplistic nonsense.

Why do say that is even a 'premise', still less a basic premise'? When he says:

"Their ability to articulate points of rhythm, melody and the flow of words in musical genres they have made or developed themselves prove that, as human beings, our urge for musical expression and facility lies deep. Young people are not afraid of things that need to be worked through. Complexity, curiosity and adventure is the new counter-culture [ … ] But this new audience of people who love the discovery of the new and the complex simply refuse to see their passions in such binary terms. I believe we’re heading towards a boundary-less age of music, where newer generations happily skate between classical and electronic, rock and pop, jazz and world music.."

He's not referring to young people's ability to appreciate classical music, but musical complexity (which is hardly likely to mean classical music these days). That's his basic premise. And on from there is the assertion that 'classical music' (define it how you will) should not be excluded from their experience: 'how will future audiences know about classical music?' (And don't say adverts and film music!)

You made up your mind that he meant that only classical music was complex. The problems for someone who takes up his stance is that he gets hit from both sides: those for whom he's not going far enough towards their own viewpoint and those for whom he's going too far.

[MrGongGong]

Why do say that is even a 'premise', still less a basic premise'? When he says:

"Their ability to articulate points of rhythm, melody and the flow of words in musical genres they have made or developed themselves prove that, as human beings, our urge for musical expression and facility lies deep. Young people are not afraid of things that need to be worked through. Complexity, curiosity and adventure is the new counter-culture [ … ] But this new audience of people who love the discovery of the new and the complex simply refuse to see their passions in such binary terms. I believe we’re heading towards a boundary-less age of music, where newer generations happily skate between classical and electronic, rock and pop, jazz and world music.."

He's not referring to young people's ability to appreciate classical music, but musical complexity (which is hardly likely to mean classical music these days). That's his basic premise. And on from there is the assertion that 'classical music' (define it how you will) should not be excluded from their experience: 'how will future audiences know about classical music?' (And don't say adverts and film music!)

You made up your mind that he meant that only classical music was complex. The problems for someone who takes up his stance is that he gets hit from both sides: those for whom he's not going far enough towards their own viewpoint and those for whom he's going too far.

I think there are some good points here and in what he says
But I do think the "complexity" thing is a bit daft and it's not clear what he really means by this ?

He does also say

"We know from BBC Music’s Ten Pieces initiative that younger audiences enjoy the challenge of something difficult so long as it grabs them in some way. "

There's nothing "difficult" about the music in the Ten Pieces project (there are some crackingly good things there)

[french frank]

I think there are some good points here and in what he says
But I do think the "complexity" thing is a bit daft and it's not clear what he really means by this ?

I think that what he's arguing against is what was, a few years back, Radio 3's default position. A certain presenter, introducing Im Sommerwind (I think on Essential Classics) felt obliged to say: "It's by Anton Webern - but before you switch off - it's really very accessible … " And as we have seen, contemporary pieces are now increasingly being played during daytime/peaktime programmes, I hope without advance health warnings.

There's nothing "difficult" about the music in the Ten Pieces project (there are some crackingly good things there)

You will never go back to being a 12-year-old hearing something unfamiliar for the first time. Unfamiliarity is surely part of the 'barrier' to be overcome, which needs effort, too, to work out a successful way of presenting it. 'Sit them down, play it to them and they'll like it' is a school method that many adults will say put them off classical music in childhood. And Ten Pieces is probably unique in being at least offered/available to an entire generation.

[MrGongGong]

I think that what he's arguing against is what was, a few years back, Radio 3's default position. A certain presenter, introducing Im Sommerwind (I think on Essential Classics) felt obliged to say: "It's by Anton Webern - but before you switch off - it's really very accessible … " And as we have seen, contemporary pieces are now increasingly being played during daytime/peaktime programmes, I hope without advance health warnings.

Let's hope the "health warnings" go completely.... BUT some well know ensembles STILL think they are necessary

You will never go back to being a 12-year-old hearing something unfamiliar for the first time. Unfamiliarity is surely part of the 'barrier' to be overcome, which needs effort, too, to work out a successful way of presenting it. 'Sit them down, play it to them and they'll like it' is a school method that many adults will say put them off classical music in childhood. And Ten Pieces is probably unique in being at least offered/available to an entire generation.

I wouldn't think that unfamiliarity is necessarily a 'barrier' unless people make it into one. I think the 'problem' is that people often make such a big deal of what, to them is unusual (Xenakis's music is a good example) when children will simply hear it as exciting music.

One of my missions at the moment is to point out that how, IMV, it is unacceptable to have youth orchestras playing concerts that don't feature any music written in the last 50 years OR by young composers. Radio 3 played some great pieces by youngsters on H&N the other night BUT they aren't in the programme info or on the playlist ? (a bit like the terrible Proms listing for this year)

"Ten Pieces" is OK but not as radical as I would have BUT it's a good bash at it.
Part of some research i'm doing at the moment includes looking at John Paynter's "All Kinds of Music" books for schools, there is much to (re) learn from this.

[Dave2002]

- no, honestly - the average person who tweets spends just one minute of each day on it and most of that is reading. In contrast, computer gaming folk spend hours and hours on those games.

A bit of hyperbole here I think, unless you've used a faulty analysis process. Would I be considered someone who tweets just because I have a twitter account, which I last used for some fairly trivial purpose several years ago? I think people who do that kind of thing do spend more than a minute each time they go for it, and that probably does push up the figure somewhat. Perhaps you also should disregard anyone who only tweets once or twice a month.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Part of some research i'm doing at the moment includes looking at John Paynter's "All Kinds of Music" books for schools, there is much to (re) learn from this.

Ah, yes. JP had some great ideas, but he only intended these to be part of a mixed and balanced music curriculum. Unfortunately, many of his followers picked up only on the more radical aspects and ditched the rest, with very loud voices.