What Classical Music Are You listening to Now? III

[Serial_Apologist]

... is it a necessary component of Marxist belief that 'everything will get better' - including the arts?

If so, I shall have to decline

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Perhaps you would have been happier had you been living in the 18th century.

[vinteuil]

Perhaps you would have been happier had you been living in the 18th century.

... my question was actually a serious one.

Do you really believe the arts are getting better and better?

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[Richard Barrett]

Do you really believe the arts are getting better and better?

It's an interesting point to ponder, in view of the obvious improvements in scientific knowledge and its application to our lives. The oldest undisputed examples of sophisticated artistic production (whatever their original purpose) would be something like the Paleolithic cave paintings, which date back at least 30 000 years, and from then until now is about a tenth of the time that anatomically "modern" humans have existed, next to which the difference in time between Brahms and Stockhausen is negligible, and during which time perhaps the cognitive potential of human beings has evolved little if at all, and that's probably where what we call art comes from, as opposed to those areas of human endeavour which develop through accumulation of knowledge, like the technology/science complex. There are overlaps of course.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's an interesting point to ponder, in view of the obvious improvements in scientific knowledge and its application to our lives. The oldest undisputed examples of sophisticated artistic production (whatever their original purpose) would be something like the Paleolithic cave paintings, which date back at least 30 000 years, and from then until now is about a tenth of the time that anatomically "modern" humans have existed, next to which the difference in time between Brahms and Stockhausen is negligible, and during which time perhaps the cognitive potential of human beings has evolved little if at all, and that's probably where what we call art comes from, as opposed to those areas of human endeavour which develop through accumulation of knowledge, like the technology/science complex. There are overlaps of course.

I tend to think that the "purpose" of the non-verbal kinds of art is to reassure us by means of representation that what I perceive has more in common with what you perceive than being at odds. I would be interested to learn whether or not personality and individuality could be factored into the character of art to anything like the same degree in pre-capitalist societies as became the case in the 19th century: the impression I have is that in feudal times arts were closer to what would become distinguished as crafts, in which people created artifacts in teams, operating on aesthetic principles laid down by custodians claiming higher authorisation than the human - this only beginning to change during the Renaissance when individual artists had rich patrons in mercantile commerce in the long process of supplanting or subordinating church and land. Subjectivity was always there in arts and music, but only became emphasised as key to inspiration during an age in which competing for patronage coincided with the positioning of the artist as artisan outwith mass production and the rise of the urban working class, whose interests and self-awareness as a class were evolving by different criteria.

I'm not so sure that the ideas which have governed how civilisations have evolved, and corresponding representations or conceptualisations which have shaped people's understanding of their place in the narrative, are so far apart as to have had only minimal impact on the neural circuits of cognition. One has substantiative reports of early white explorers showing western artifacts to indigenous peoples outside anything corresponding to their experiences.

[vinteuil]

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... none of which helps me to understand whether or not Serial_Apologist really thinks that art has 'got better' over time

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[Serial_Apologist]

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... none of which helps me to understand whether or not Serial_Apologist really thinks that art has 'got better' over time

.

Well I'm just a mere mortal, but for what it's worth global judgements in this regard are I think of not much use, as each age draws its own conclusions according to what "better" would mean to it. Art I would consider as best reflecting its times would be better than art that failed in this respect, so that I would rate some present-day art lower than artistic manifestations of previous ages, while at the same time harbouring misgivings as to what claims I could make for identifying with what people felt at the time - fulfilment being relative to circumstance. What the indicators of quality are, or the criteria, is another discussion.

[MickyD]

Perhaps you would have been happier had you been living in the 18th century.

My family and friends have always said that about me!

[Serial_Apologist]

My family and friends have always said that about me!

[Richard Barrett]

I would be interested to learn whether or not personality and individuality could be factored into the character of art to anything like the same degree in pre-capitalist societies as became the case in the 19th century: the impression I have is that in feudal times arts were closer to what would become distinguished as crafts, in which people created artifacts in teams, operating on aesthetic principles laid down by custodians claiming higher authorisation than the human - this only beginning to change during the Renaissance when individual artists had rich patrons in mercantile commerce in the long process of supplanting or subordinating church and land.

As a counterexample I would cite Greek tragedy.

[Joseph K]

As a counterexample I would cite Greek tragedy.

... on which note, I return to the Stravinsky boxed set: Agon - Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin/Ashkenazy

[AuntDaisy]

As a counterexample I would cite Greek tragedy.

"Have some madeira, Medea?" As F&S so aptly suggested.

William Byrd
My Ladye Nevells Booke, (1597).
Christopher Hogwood. (Harpsichord, virginals, organ).

The earlier posts about "My Ladye Nevells Booke" lead me to the British Library scan. Amazing that such a beautiful object / collection has survived the ravages of time.
The Hogwood was new to me - thank you BBMmk2.

[jayne lee wilson]

Long pause for calm thought, or no thought at all.......


Mes favoris
Cet élément a bien été ajouté / retiré de vos favoris.Ramon Humet: Light

Sigvards Klava, Latvian Radio Choir
Released on 04/06/2021 by Ondine

• QOBUZ 24-Bit 96.0 kHz - Stereo

[vinteuil]

Perhaps you would have been happier had you been living in the 18th century.

.

My family and friends have always said that about me!

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... no, that would not be my choice. I am exceedingly grateful that I live at this moment in time.

Not least because it gives me access to far more eighteenth century music, art, literature, architecture than I could ever have experienced had I lived in the eighteenth century



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[gurnemanz]

Orlando Gibbons - The Consort Of Musicke – Madrigals & Motets 1612. L'Oiseau-Lyre

Beautiful recording from a lifetime ago - 1975, also the year we got married. I've not played it for a while. Emma Kirkby is exactly the same age as me.

[cloughie]

Some favourites from ago!

Schubert: Sym 5 VPO Bohm - the mono one from the 50s

Tchaik: Serenade for Strings IPO Solti
Glinka: Russlan & Ludmilla Overture
Mussorgsky: Khovanschchina Prel
Mussorgsky: Night on a Bare Mountain
Borodin: Prince Igor Overture & Polovtsian Dances
LSO Solti

…and with that I’ll sit back and listen and take a summer break from the Forum!