Should BBC radio be broadening the spectrum of music for young people

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was also taken into a Proustian reverie by Lats' reference to Rediffusion. We had one of those combined TV/Radio sets (Cable before its time) - and I had a "Reggie Rediffusion" badge to prove it (some kind of parrot, IIRC).

It was also one of those jolts when Lats mentioned how we are fifty years from Sgt Pepper - especially when it only seems a very few years ago that an ageing hippy teacher colleague of mine was saying to me "You do realize that next year we'll be saying 'It was twenty years ago today' that Sgt Pepper was first released. I forget just how old I am! But, I do remember hearing from that very Rediffusion radio, Pete Murray on Radio2 playing Al Jolson, Gershwin, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald (whose voice remains one of the most important in my life) - there was Music that was fifty years old played fairly regularly then, that became part of the consciousness of younger kids who "hated" it then (who wanted to hear T Rex, or Slade, instead) - those of us who had Mums who played nothing but Radio 2 heard a very wide range of "Easy" listening Music. I don't think that there is that sort of exposure around now, which is a great loss - and my concern is that the cultural milieu means that a channel that tried to re-introduce such diversity would not get huge numbers of listeners.

[french frank]

What, in the comfort of my retirement armchair (and with no practical facts to back up my thoughts), I think would be better is Online resources for teachers of all age groups, together with contributions on Radios 1, 1x, 6, and Asian from practitioners from the worlds of "Classical", Jazz, and World Musics closer in age to (and/or with a more sympathetic understanding of) the audiences to whom we might wish to give this broader spectrum.

I seem to remember that one review of the Asian Network did point out that there was very little for Asian listeners who wanted something other than Bollywood, Bhangra, Lollywood &c. 'Asia' must be the richest source of diverse traditions having very little connection with 'world music' as the BBC understands it. The target audience was then said to be the single, 28-year-old, 'Asian' (?) male.

When Making Tracks was on Radio 3, it may not have been much of an introduction to anything but the online material was quite good for schools and parents. Just not too many children listening to Radio 3 itself …

On the question of what lands on whose desk (and gets read), I'm investigating how much of the Trust's remit is now with Ofcom and how much reverts back to BBC Management - neither prospect being particularly encouraging. The Trust did read what was sent to them: they just weren't given the teeth to impose their views on the BBC hierarchy.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I seem to remember that one review of the Asian Network did point out that there was very little for Asian listeners who wanted something other than Bollywood, Bhangra, Lollywood &c. 'Asia' must be the richest source of diverse traditions having very little connection with 'world music' as the BBC understands it. The target audience was then said to be the single, 28-year-old, 'Asian' (?) male.

Indeed - and it is this cross-the-board restricting that made me immediately answer "yes" to the Thread title question last week.

When Making Tracks was on Radio 3, it may not have been much of an introduction to anything but the online material was quite good for schools and parents. Just not too many children listening to Radio 3 itself …

... and interrupting the listening habits of many R3 regulars. The point I made earlier about who we mean by "young people" - Making Tracks seemed to work from the premise that anyone under voting age all had the same interests and attitudes as each other, whether they were six or sixteen. Future online materials should also be attractive to the various age groups themselves - away from following teachers' instructions and/or parents' recommendations.

On the question of what lands on whose desk (and gets read), I'm investigating how much of the Trust's remit is now with Ofcom and how much reverts back to BBC Management - neither prospect being particularly encouraging. The Trust did read what was sent to them: they just weren't given the teeth to impose their views on the BBC hierarchy.

This is indeed crucial - if Ofcom is as aware of broadcasting needs as Ofsted is of those of education, we're doomed!

[MrGongGong]

One huge problem (and along comes someone to tell me that it's all fine !) is that because of politics (sorry, but we have educational and other policy driven by ideology rather than experience or knowledge) many children now go to schools with NO music at all.

So, it's all very well folks at the BBC and other places making nice resources for GCSE and A level students, running projects with teachers (and I've done a fair number of these in my time) and so on BUT many children simply don't get ANY music anymore.
Unless these things are made in such a way that youngsters can "stumble" across them and find them interesting outside of formal education then we are not serving ALL the people who should be engaged with.

BUT to put in bluntly, no-one really gives a sh*t as the idea that education should be something more than preparation for some nebulous "job" that will exist some time in the future is out of fashion with those in control.

[Lat-Literal]

I was also taken into a Proustian reverie by Lats' reference to Rediffusion. We had one of those combined TV/Radio sets (Cable before its time) - and I had a "Reggie Rediffusion" badge to prove it (some kind of parrot, IIRC).

It was also one of those jolts when Lats mentioned how we are fifty years from Sgt Pepper - especially when it only seems a very few years ago that an ageing hippy teacher colleague of mine was saying to me "You do realize that next year we'll be saying 'It was twenty years ago today' that Sgt Pepper was first released. I forget just how old I am! But, I do remember hearing from that very Rediffusion radio, Pete Murray on Radio2 playing Al Jolson, Gershwin, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald (whose voice remains one of the most important in my life) - there was Music that was fifty years old played fairly regularly then, that became part of the consciousness of younger kids who "hated" it then (who wanted to hear T Rex, or Slade, instead) - those of us who had Mums who played nothing but Radio 2 heard a very wide range of "Easy" listening Music. I don't think that there is that sort of exposure around now, which is a great loss - and my concern is that the cultural milieu means that a channel that tried to re-introduce such diversity would not get huge numbers of listeners.

Was there more than one Rediffusion switch in your home ferney? I can't recall if my grandparents had one behind their living room curtain. All I remember is the one beside the kitchen door or the exit to the yard and lavatory as it was known. I say "kitchen" but it was also the room of the newly fitted bath. Ah, the joys of 1972 in the Garden of England.

Easy listening music of the kind that you mention will be on specialist R2 programmes today, broadcast weekly and mainly late at night while there are programmes covering 60s, 70s and 80s music from R1. The latter are now repeated in the early hours instead of a live programme. The lorry drivers don't like it much as they prefer to feel that they are with a person rather than a tape. It was the previously mentioned programme of David Hamilton where in the mid 1970s the idea that the music of R2 and the poppier R1 could meet at "acceptable" lighter points was reinforced, after periods mainly earlier in that decade when some programmes had at times gone out on both channels because of limited resources.

None of the old points would be remembered by James Purnell, 47, who may or may not have been mentioned on this forum. I think frenchie's investigations on the Ofcom role are to be welcomed but perhaps when she has a spare moment she could advise us on what his new role is and what he aims to do. I doubt his appointment struck me as long overdue.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One huge problem (and along comes someone to tell me that it's all fine !) is that because of politics (sorry, but we have educational and other policy driven by ideology rather than experience or knowledge) many children now go to schools with NO music at all.
So, it's all very well folks at the BBC and other places making nice resources for GCSE and A level students, running projects with teachers (and I've done a fair number of these in my time) and so on BUT many children simply don't get ANY music anymore.
Unless these things are made in such a way that youngsters can "stumble" across them and find them interesting outside of formal education then we are not serving ALL the people who should be engaged with.

BUT to put in bluntly, no-one really gives a sh*t as the idea that education should be something more than preparation for some nebulous "job" that will exist some time in the future is out of fashion with those in control.

You are, of course, absolutely right (I've done supply work in Primary Schools that don't teach Art, either! (And don't get me started on Drama or Dance.) It's not "all right", it's a terrible deprivation of what should be a universal right to a creative education.

I'm hoping that ideas arising from Forums like this will be noticed by "somebody" who can influence the BBC, somebody who sees the unique potential of the Corporation's providing schools with content that can be used by schools without specialist staff - online lesson structures that a teacher or teaching assistant can "supervise". Murdoch and kind do not, cannot, and aren't interested in this: it could be a "selling point" for the Beeb

And, I know that's naive - that MPs from all main parties being in sway to Murdoch, there's little chance of much support for this; AND the only chance that those in Government would be attracted to the idea is if it's sold to them as a further way of reducing the need for trained & qualified teachers with their pesky demands. I don't feel at all smug or relieved when I say that I feel well out of it.

But if there's a hope (however "slight" or even "forlorn") that the Forum can make a contribution towards an improvement in attitudes and content - then it's a hope I think is well worth working towards.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Was there more than one Rediffusion switch in your home ferney? I can't recall if my grandparents had one behind their living room curtain. All I remember is the one beside the kitchen door or the exit to the yard and avatory as it was known. I say "kitchen" but it was also the room of the newly fitted bath. Ah, the joys of 1972 in the Garden of England.

Just the one (this was c1967/68) on the back window frame - a white plastic box with a dial that made a very satisfying series of clicks as you moved it between the stations. B&W telly - the first time we were able to get BBC2.

[Lat-Literal]

Just the one (this was c1967/68) on the back window frame - a white plastic box with a dial that made a very satisfying series of clicks as you moved it between the stations. B&W telly - the first time we were able to get BBC2.

That's it.

It had lettering A to whatever - with one letter representing each station.

Probably A to G - for R1-R4, BBC1 and 2 and ITV.

And about double the range of decent content currently on Freeview etc.

"I bought a bourgeois house in the Hollywood hills
With a trunkload of hundred thousand dollar bills
Man came by to hook up my cable TV
We settled in for the night my baby and me
We switched 'round and 'round 'til half-past down
There was fifty-seven channels and nothin' on

Well now home entertainment was my baby's wish
So I hopped into town for a satellite dish
I tied it to the top of my Japanese car
I came home and I pointed it out into the stars
A message came back from the great beyond
There's fifty-seven channnels and nothin' on"

(Bruce Springsteen - 57 Channels and Nothin' On)

(Just to clarify for Serial_Apologist who occasionally follows these things and may wonder about inconsistency, tower block London was my mother's side of our family estate)

[DracoM]

<< Unless these things are made in such a way that youngsters can "stumble" across them and find them interesting outside of formal education then we are not serving ALL the people who should be engaged with. >>

Regular pieces on Youtube? Or are the 'rights etc / payments' issues too complex for that?
Could use BBC3 as was and as might be for short bits?
More regular broadcasts FROM schools / about schools and their music on mainstream R3 AND BBC2 or 4 or even the now road-wrecked BBC3- would bring in students / friends / families / siblings, hangers on / teachers in other schools etc?

[MrGongGong]

I'm hoping that ideas arising from Forums like this will be noticed by "somebody" who can influence the BBC, somebody who sees the unique potential of the Corporation's providing schools with content that can be used by schools without specialist staff - online lesson structures that a teacher or teaching assistant can "supervise". .

I hear what you saying and there is plenty of this stuff about already.

BUT, and this also goes back to things like the National Plan for Music Education in England, having been involved in creating this kind of material what I find is that without someone advocating for music in a school it simply won't be used.
Furthermore there is a need to establish and maintain budgets for these things. In the (rather cr*p and misleading) James Rhodes thing on TV a couple of years ago the head of the school he visited said that she had NO budget for music. What she should have said was that she CHOSE to have no budget for music and didn't think it was important enough to work to get money for music to happen in her school.

SO, YES of course we should be doing this and many of us are involved in these things (though mine this week is in Reykjavik but it was Hull last week ) AND we shouldn't allow those in positions of power to get away with defunding arts education.

Nick Serota's "ministry for the bloody obvious" aint going to help either IMV

[french frank]

Furthermore there is a need to establish and maintain budgets for these things. In the (rather cr*p and misleading) James Rhodes thing on TV a couple of years ago the head of the school he visited said that she had NO budget for music. What she should have said was that she CHOSE to have no budget for music and didn't think it was important enough to work to get money for music to happen in her school.

There seems to be a good Music Education Hub in Bristol, easier, I suppose, for urban centres.

[MrGongGong]

There seems to be a good Music Education Hub in Bristol, easier, I suppose, for urban centres.

That's the problem
There are some good things in some places (not necessarily all urban areas)
but b*gger all elsewhere

The whole hub idea is a bit of a mess

[french frank]

The whole hub idea is a bit of a mess

Could explain how Bristol managed to win two awards …

[DracoM]

[french frank]

That's the problem
There are some good things in some places (not necessarily all urban areas)
but b*gger all elsewhere

The whole hub idea is a bit of a mess

Though is that any more of a mess than the situation with schools - unless the schools have to make certain minimum provision for music education and the money is made available?

At least with hubs (as I understand the situation in Bristol) children who would be poorly served in their individual schools do have access to very broad musical experiences. The Bristol hub "Bristol Plays Music" is run by the Bristol Music Trust, which is a charity working with most of the schools in the region. I can't see that there is any council or government contribution (possibly grants?). Annual Report mention funding from ACE.

Nuttin' to do with the BBC, of course, though if the right people were in charge there …