Should BBC radio be broadening the spectrum of music for young people

[teamsaint]

Music and leisure in the C21 has a very substantial element of being " event driven".
As we all know, the issue of inability to access a wide of music easily or cheaply, or on demand, the issue that all of us grew up with, has all but gone in places like the UK. The other side of the coin is now a potentially baffling and limitless range of music(s), in which it is hard to find that which is both new to and appealing to us.
At the same time, the rise of the collective event, such as festivals, immersion days, multimedia events, curated residencies and so on, provide increasing opportunities for us to access that in which others find great value.
I'd suggest that younger people, 20 and 30 somethings have grown up in a culture where these things are far more prevalent, and that they provide a focus that have to an extent replaced the collective experiences of yesterday, As an example, Rock and pop festivals as multi media events have , I suspect, replaced the pop charts as a collective experience for that kind of music. Womad replacing R1's coverage of World music, and so on.
I think to help broaden musical horizons for individuals, the BBC needs to key into this sense of event. The Proms still manage to do this , to an extent, and there must be opportunities to use events, locations, leisure time slots, key personalities to draw people to the music that the movers and shakers deem worthy.
So I'm thinking of personalities () such as Jonny Greenwood of Radiohead, locations like the Roundhouse, cross cultural events ( check out the queues at Tate Modern each weekend) , and musical events that already cross specific musical genres.

I think I rambled there......

[Lat-Literal]

A brainstorming list as I have nothing better to do at the moment:

01. Open to the argument that more resources are needed in schools, with an emphasis on money - but there does need to be a clear vision on what to do with them.
02. Venues - live music became the future but venue closure is a key issue, especially in Greater London. For reasons of development but also drugs issues in clubs.
03. Classical music - late romanticism is regarded by quite a few observers as the most accessible classical music. Perversely, R3 doesn't have a programme for it.
04. What the public chooses when choosing something different - Boe/Ball as Pavarotti and Galway before them - we need to accept trends won't ever be earth shattering.
05. Film, television, advertising, sport - it is these that lead towards significant interest in classical or semi-classical music - perhaps more of a need to see that as a plus.
06. Folk music - Scotland has kept its scene thriving/relevant not least by having a structure for it - the Trads strike more of a chord than Folk Musician of the Year.
07. English folk, a perennial as far as hot topics go - any associated nationalism is uneasy and yet one might have thought in the Corbyn era leftish folk would be on the up.
08. Harding to Radcliffe on R2 is an improvement but it is hardly young. BBC local radio dropped its old folk shows - inclusion of folk in the day has made no difference.
09. I don't know quite how brass bands are doing with the collapse of associated industry - there still seems to be a significant if updated and thriving employment base.
10. A significant part of the antidote to and crossover with overt commercialism in the US is country - there is no equivalent in most of Britain, especially England.

11. Popular music needs to keep changing rapidly in style to create momentum - it is currently in a corporate stasis. Risk takers? No. Increasingly the very opposite.
12. Again pop, there might need to be an acceptance that the future is in a pastiche of earlier styles and to boost such movements by removing negative connotations.
13. The soul end of world - disappointing that Daptone and similar labels have not been joined by many more - not market forces but crushed by business formulae.
14. Excitement is a key aspect in 2017 as it always was to some extent - I still think British Afrobeat could be very big with the right marketing but it rarely gets it.
15. Roots reggae and dub still exist on the periphery but they are similarly stifled - I would have thought dub is the sort of thing that could always have more mileage.
16. Immigration - I think there is a sense that people could be encouraged to bring their own musical culture into British society - there is too much emphasis on jobs.
17. Not to attempt to define then enhance a British world music identity at this particular time in history is likely to lead to an even greater American cultural colonialism.
18. Jazz - lots to be said no doubt but I am never presumptuous in this regard and prefer to leave it to the experts - I sense that most believe it isn't all as it should be.
19. Does anyone actually have a clear idea about the overall perspectives of young people on music? - perhaps they need to be asked and to undertake studies themselves.
20. The BBC could take the lead for a comprehensive national youth music study with an advisory role on music history and its own organisational history and structures.

Activity

A key word. This is not an era of passivity. Talking and listening are at best is in very short bursts in line with Twitter. People like to talk as much as they will listen or observe. That on the surface is not good news for music, radio or indeed television. However, as soon as music aligns with something active people tend to engage. From the line dancing of Achy Breaky Heart through ipods on the treadmill at the gym to Strictly Come Dancing, this to some extent has always been the case. It is also frequently very underestimated.

Morris dancers may be perceived differently from their usual image when alongside a cheese rolling ceremony. The Unthanks sound considerably less introspective but no less authentic, appealing and even deep when viewed through the lens of Tar Barrel in Dale. There was a period not so long ago when wild diving festivals in North Wales combined with club music. The music of itself was no longer enough. At Womad drummers are heard but also drums are very much drummed. None of this is at all new - just more accentuated.

I do think that in all musical areas many young people will increasingly be drawn to music where there is a significant association of activity accompanying it. There was a time when doing nothing was cool but coolness now is all about doing as much as you can. It is that sense of movement that can be lacking in radio and across the industry as a whole.

Yoof presenters, egotistical celebrity performers, controversy for the sake of it, the encouragement to keep changing channels and noise parading as music are not in any way a means of meeting the issue half way. Rather they are symptomatic of the obvious gap between individual and local enthusiasms and the tortoise like ways of overpaid executives.

[Lat-Literal]

Music and leisure in the C21 has a very substantial element of being " event driven".
As we all know, the issue of inability to access a wide of music easily or cheaply, or on demand, the issue that all of us grew up with, has all but gone in places like the UK. The other side of the coin is now a potentially baffling and limitless range of music(s), in which it is hard to find that which is both new to and appealing to us.
At the same time, the rise of the collective event, such as festivals, immersion days, multimedia events, curated residencies and so on, provide increasing opportunities for us to access that in which others find great value.
I'd suggest that younger people, 20 and 30 somethings have grown up in a culture where these things are far more prevalent, and that they provide a focus that have to an extent replaced the collective experiences of yesterday, As an example, Rock and pop festivals as multi media events have , I suspect, replaced the pop charts as a collective experience for that kind of music. Womad replacing R1's coverage of World music, and so on.
I think to help broaden musical horizons for individuals, the BBC needs to key into this sense of event. The Proms still manage to do this , to an extent, and there must be opportunities to use events, locations, leisure time slots, key personalities to draw people to the music that the movers and shakers deem worthy.
So I'm thinking of personalities () such as Jonny Greenwood of Radiohead, locations like the Roundhouse, cross cultural events ( check out the queues at Tate Modern each weekend) , and musical events that already cross specific musical genres.

I think I rambled there......

Very interesting.

Our posts crossed re timing but I think we are both on similar lines of thinking.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The BBC could be the key to the advancement - indeed the survival - of classical music, and not just for the young. We now have a generation of children and a generation of parents with very limited experience of what we refer to as classical music. The BBC has done great things over the years to promote classical music. Radios 2, 3 & 4 all had a classical input at one time, increasing the likelihood of more people experiencing it than now, when there's only Radio 3 (and CFM, if that counts), which people only switch on if they consciously want to hear this kind of music. Andre Previn's Music Night was a huge success, but there's been nothing like this for decades.

Television opera broadcasts are now once in a blue moon, but would perhaps be a little better fare than Top of the Pops repeats on BBC4.

Speaking personally, it was the BBC who did it for me as a child. My parents encouraged me by arranging for me to have piano lessons, but I wasn't that keen at first, and when given a Mozart minuet to learn, I became so frustrated that I yelled out "I wish Mozart had never lived." Then in 1960, on the BBC Home Service, there was a children's series early on Sunday evenings, about classical composer. My father suggested I listened to the one about Beethoven. I thought the sound of the orchestra was wonderful, and my father followed it up by playing a 78 rpm (VPO/Furtwangler) recording of Mozart's 40th, first movement. It was a pivotal moment from which I've never looked back, and I have the BBC and my dad to thank.

Wouldn't it be great to offer today's 10-year olds similar inspirations?

[DracoM]

Wouldn't it be interesting if this whole thread arrived on important desks in R3?
Just an idle thought.

[MrGongGong]

Speaking personally, it was the BBC who did it for me as a child. My parents encouraged me by arranging for me to have piano lessons, but I wasn't that keen at first, and when given a Mozart minuet to learn, I became so frustrated that I yelled out "I wish Mozart had never lived." Then in 1960, on the BBC Home Service, there was a children's series early on Sunday evenings, about classical composer. My father suggested I listened to the one about Beethoven. I thought the sound of the orchestra was wonderful, and my father followed it up by playing a 78 rpm (VPO/Furtwangler) recording of Mozart's 40th, first movement. It was a pivotal moment from which I've never looked back, and I have the BBC and my dad to thank.

Whilst this is undoubtedly true for many of us the thing one always needs to remember in my experience, is that for every single person who discovers music in this way there are hundreds for whom this kind of de-contextualised experience simply doesn't work at all.
To put it short "we" who found things in ways like this are weirdos

I thought the sound of the orchestra was wonderful

The sound of an orchestra can indeed be wonderful BUT you are referring to a recording of the sound of the orchestra which isn't the same thing as the orchestra in the room.
But i've banged on about pictures of pipes long enough

[doversoul1]

But i've banged on about pictures of pipes long enough

They can tell what a pipe looks like much better than pictures of carrots.
(but I almost agree with you about the ‘we’)

[ed.] This is an interesting article but how likely is it for the children who became interested in what they learned from this to ‘widen’ their interest in other type of music, such as classical music? Or is it not the point? And if this is one of the ways to interest young people, is there anything BBC radio can do to take place of youtube?

Can electronic music revolutionise school music lessons?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/jun/30/electronic-music-school-lessons-ableton-youtube

[DracoM]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/27/music-lessons-children-white-wealthy

We're not the only ones thinking about the issues apparently.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The sound of an orchestra can indeed be wonderful BUT you are referring to a recording of the sound of the orchestra which isn't the same thing as the orchestra in the room.

That brings to mind the time when I taught in NE Derbyshire. A colleague suggested we took the school orchestra on a tour of local primary schools. This seemed a great idea, so I arranged a 30 minute programme and a coach, enabling us to visit 9 schools over two days. Everyone was happy, particularly the players, who could skive off lessons on those days. The idea really took off and we learnt from the experience to improve the programme and presentation for future years. The idea became a fixture, and enhanced the reputation of the school considerably. We were told that the children went home and told their parents they wanted to go to Alpen Hall School because they wanted to play in the orchestra.

So imagine our disappointment when in one concert, we started the concert in our usual bright and breezy way, with a lively folk dance that had been such a success elsewhere, the young children sitting crosslegged on the front row (rather close to the orchestra) and simultaneously burst into tears, because we sounded so loud. But we learnt from that too.

So, yes, the orchestra in the room is very different.

[french frank]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-white-wealthy

We're not the only ones thinking about the issues apparently.

Not sure about this, so the question is posed from a position of ignorance

We know what we think of as being a 'music education' - and what it implies. But how far have some of the current most 'successful' young performers, singers or instrumentalists, had such an education? Or how far do they rely on support of some kind by trained musicians?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Not sure about this, so the question is posed from a position of ignorance

One of those journalists who consider it a badge of honour not to be able to read music. Would the same apply to those who can't read words?

[french frank]

One of those journalists who consider it a badge of honour not to be able to read music. Would the same apply to those who can't read words?

Obviously not, though the point she makes is that she had the chance but her brain seemed unable to process notation.

And many 'successful' musicians can't read music. That was my point. I think it's limiting, but mainly (vested interest) for anyone who might be interested in classical music.

I was 'chid' for suggesting Paul McCartney's musicianship was 'lesser' because George Martin did the arrangements - which was my point about reliance on trained musicians. How far do performers get (we're talking about the performers who matter to younger people) without this education?

[MrGongGong]

That brings to mind the time when I taught in NE Derbyshire. A colleague suggested we took the school orchestra on a tour of local primary schools. This seemed a great idea, so I arranged a 30 minute programme and a coach, enabling us to visit 9 schools over two days. Everyone was happy, particularly the players, who could skive off lessons on those days. The idea really took off and we learnt from the experience to improve the programme and presentation for future years. The idea became a fixture, and enhanced the reputation of the school considerably. We were told that the children went home and told their parents they wanted to go to Alpen Hall School because they wanted to play in the orchestra.

So imagine our disappointment when in one concert, we started the concert in our usual bright and breezy way, with a lively folk dance that had been such a success elsewhere, the young children sitting crosslegged on the front row (rather close to the orchestra) and simultaneously burst into tears, because we sounded so loud. But we learnt from that too.

So, yes, the orchestra in the room is very different.

I did a project recently where we took a 50 ish piece symphony orchestra into the schools where we were going to be composing a piece for a concert. So at lunchtime they encountered the full on Sibelius 5 in the entrance, not presented as a "concert" but something they could walk about and go and sit in the middle of.

Cost a bit
BUT (and some of the schools we went to were fairly "hardcore" secondary places where one wouldn't imagine encountering such things) a much more dynamic way of folks encountering orchestral music.

[MrGongGong]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-white-wealthy

We're not the only ones thinking about the issues apparently.

It's a shame it's so badly researched though

I guess it's an "opinion" but doesn't seem to reflect what I and others experience

The massive expansion of opportunities for participating in non-noted musics (choirs being the prime example) seems to have passed her by entirely.

[french frank]

The massive expansion of opportunities for participating in non-noted musics (choirs being the prime example) seems to have passed her by entirely.

But the thread title is referring specifically to BBC radio, not children's opportunities to participate in music.

Surely it has never been the case that 'most' children played musical instruments or participated in any way other than in listening to other people playing or to records. And the important choirs are mainly auditioned, so not being able to read music limits their participative opportunities.