Should BBC radio be broadening the spectrum of music for young people

[Globaltruth]

Do you think the remit of BBC radio, perhaps specifically, r3 should include an obligation to promote a wider spectrum of music? Or do they do enough with r1, r1 extra, r2...

If you think they should then how should they do it?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Yes.

By coincidence, this is something that I've been pondering recently - I'm not sure I have any specific "solutions" as to how it might be addressed, but certain things need to be taken into consideration, such as

What is meant by "young people"? There needs to be different ways of "spectrum-broadening" for the different Key Stage groups (5-8, 8-11, 11-14, 14-16, 16-18, 18-26, etc etc ).

It shouldn't just involve BBC radio, but television and internet streaming facilities, too. Programmes available when best convenient for the school, prepared so that (for example) valuable educational experience can be provided whether or not there is a "Music Specialist" in a Primary School.

The corporation needs to work with schools and educationalists to ensure both that the widest range of children is included, and that Music is chosen that best fits in with other curriculum areas.

The BBC orchestras should be involved - suitably willing and qualified instrumentalists visiting schools, and regular schools' concerts with kids (and their teachers) bussed to afternoon events aimed at the different key stage age groups: one a term, so that Concerts become associated from an early age with "Trips"; a welcome morning/afternoon away from school.

BBC facilities could join forces with UK opera and ballet companies to provide Live/recorded broadcasts of productions with presentation geared towards what young people have been studying in school.

And, although I've concentrated on "Classical" Music (my comfort zone), a truly "broad spectrum" would of course include Jazz and World Musics - and any area of Music that is out of the everyday experience of what young people encounter every day. People need to be made aware of the vast possibilities open to them in the word "Music". Frenchie has - quite rightly - praised the "Ten Pieces" initiative of the Beeb. This is a very good start, but I think it would be very worth the corporation's while to expand its activities in schools and wider education - it is the sort of thing that Murdoch and the Independent companies do not and cannot offer (and aren't interested in offering as it costs money and doesn't bring it in), and would be something that even the corporation's critics could not but agree was something to be praised from the rooftops.

[Lat-Literal]

Do you think the remit of BBC radio, perhaps specifically, r3 should include an obligation to promote a wider spectrum of music? Or do they do enough with r1, r1 extra, r2...

If you think they should then how should they do it?

Interesting question which I think is essentially linked to a more complicated one.

I am not persuaded by the currently favoured argument that radio could be non-existent in several decades on account of the diminishing number of young listeners. Lifestyles in the round probably affect individuals' media behaviours more than changing technological formats. For as long as the middle aged and the elderly spend much of their time in employment, in cars or in the home then generations coming through will exhibit similar traits to those preceding them. Radios in some form will still be on in shops and dentists' waiting rooms, in the HGVs and executive cars on the M1, in kitchens accompanying ironing and in bathrooms during a bath. Formats other than radio - and television - are largely chosen at this time by young people because they are often on public transport or just restlessly on the move and hands free. They are also chosen because of their novelty. There may well be scope for continuous novelty in media IT for two or three more decades but that is not a lifetime for most people. IT media will ultimately bed down with radio and TV as equal competitors supported by regularly enhanced cross-platforming but won't take precedence in fashion in the medium term to a range of largely unrelated robot technology.

Re programme content, we have a bigger problem, especially in mainstream music radio. The natural transition was always from R1 to R2. Then there was overlap. Now they are distinct again as they have been for some time. Certainly R1/R1E/AN starts from a considerably lower listening base and it may be the prime contender for being privatised should that moment come. Otherwise, it could disappear completely with commercial radio stations filling that gap. Capital, Kiss and other similar stations already have sizeable audiences and one of the issues there, I think, is whether their listeners would ever naturally "transition" at a later age to a BBC station like R2. What BBC R2 has done is move from a diet of Al Martino, The Beatles and Billy Joel to Kate Bush, Coldplay and Ed Sheeran. Whether it could accommodate the dominant music trends in most of the 2000s alongside the 1990s may be open to debate. It is possible. Some are already incorporated. No mention of specialist programming here as I am not sure that it is hugely relevant. Either there will still be a call for it by a substantial few or there will not be. Mostly, what I would worry about in trying to acquire young listeners to a BBC station who would later move to R2 is the broader culture which promotes a rather non BBC style emphasis on sensationalism. Is that a phase or will it continue? Could/would the BBC move in that direction? I hope not.

That point also applies in some respects to R4 in that it is definitely true of the news industry. However, I sense that the distinctiveness of its brand - horrible word in this context - and the way in which many adults want something steadier when older will see it through. If R3 continues to play its current hand, ditto there. Sadly, 6 Music and 4 Extra may be products of their time. While there will always be indie guitar bands, comedy and drama and I like each of those stations a lot, I just wonder whether there is more than a decade or two left in a significant concept of post punk or an ongoing appreciation of Hancock's Half Hour. 5 Live which I am not at all keen on in the main will always pull in the young as well as the old for as long as it has sport. Indeed sport and any string of strong new comedy series may be as much of a future gateway into BBC radio as was pop music in the last three and half decades of the 1900s. There will, of course, be a more diverse collection of presenters across the board to reflect ongoing social changes. I don't think anyone has done that better than the BBC to date. It enables everyone to be who they are and at the same time to be without question the BBC. The way it happens can be miraculous.

In fact, the right presenters lead to choices for presenters rather than choices for no presenters. The importance of loyalty to presenters is so great it is an industry cliche. I think in some areas it might be right to seek new voices as well as to update programme formatting and improve the stations' "aural architecture". Otherwise radio will lose out a bit to the likes of Spotify/Qobuz. A preference for your own playlist or one chosen for you? For most people it will continue to be a bit of each, depending on any fleeting desires for familiarity/exploration. These things will increasingly weave in and out technologically. But of course Spotify itself is not now looking solid as a model. That could change things too.

Not much of what I have written here suggests the need for huge adaptation. What I do have, though, is another good opportunity to have a go at advertising. The vast majority of people of all ages - probably all - would much rather listen to Spotify or watch a You Tube clip that is without advertising than with advertising. The BBC needs to make far more than it does now on how it can be a better experience for not having advertising. Oh yes, and BBC Local/Regional Radio needs an overhaul - fewer stations, each more distinctive.

[french frank]

Do you think the remit of BBC radio, perhaps specifically, r3 should include an obligation to promote a wider spectrum of music? Or do they do enough with r1, r1 extra, r2...

If you think they should then how should they do it?

No. That is exactly what Roger Wright did in c.2002 (Late Junction, B Kay's Light Programme, Andy Kershaw, World Routes). By 2007 he changed direction because the policy was a flop.

The old Light Programme - which used to included a certain amount of lighter classical music is now four/five separate music stations: Radio 1, Radio 1Xtra, Radio 2 and Radio 6 Music (Asian Network) with scarcely any /no classical music. The Home Service which was broadcasting quite a lot of classical music in 1967, just before it became Radio 4, is now 'speech radio' - three stations - R4, R4Extra, R5Live.

How can Radio 3 fulfil its remit vis-à-vis classical music if it then has to take on an ever wider range of music, as the other stations focus on popular musics and drop all the classical?

Even taking on world music was a widening of the musical remit, since the amount of 'global traditional' musics gets largely omitted from the 'world'.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

How can Radio 3 fulfil its remit vis-à-vis classical music if it then has to take on an ever wider range of music, as the other stations focus on popular musics and drop all the classical?

I didn't read the Thread title to mean that - rather "what (if anything) can the BBC do to enable young people to become aware that there is more to 'Music' than the stuff they most regularly - if not exclusively - encounter repeatedly every day"? (Even if a lot of that "stuff" is "encountered repeatedly every day" on BBC programmes.)

[Globaltruth]

I didn't read the Thread title to mean that - rather "what (if anything) can the BBC do to enable young people to become aware that there is more to 'Music' than the stuff they most regularly - if not exclusively - encounter repeatedly every day"? (Even if a lot of that "stuff" is "encountered repeatedly every day" on BBC programmes.)

Thanks, ferney, that is what I meant. I used the word 'spectrum' deliberately, and that may have caused some confusion. I was thinking of classical, traditional, and music of other cultures myself, but am aware that there are other types of music out there.
I believe there is something called 'jass' which is popular for example...

Forgot the question mark too....

The main point being that, unless they seek it out, young people are unlikely to encounter anything outside the spectrum of music commercially provided to them; they should be given the chance to listen and decide for themselves. in my opinion BBC (radio) are ideally placed to provide this 'chance', this spectrum. How?

[DracoM]

Firstly, what is remarkable is that we even have to ASK this question!

Media platforms such as big players like BBC have surely got past the 'stately home garden' syndrome, whereby they set out the carefully manicured horticultural landscape and then admit tourists? The competition is huge, the basic kit and the proliferation of access changed beyond recognition, the menus on offer even in a decade.

Tinkering at the edges is not enough.
Every media organisation has to set out to facilitate. It is said the audience for R3 averages over 60 yrs old. Work it out - how many of that audience will be dead in 30 years? Where is the next tranche to come from? From the 16 yr old plus? Probably. Many [most??] of those access / like videos. Most access much through Utube etc.
SO
how much brain does it take for R3 / BBC4 / to get together to video concerts? Make them accessible? Doesn't have to be whole concerts, but pieces. Doesn''t have to be elaborate state of studio / art lighting / swish camera work. Just a decent camera, and decent sound relay.
AND
get young ensembles on camera / concert / showcased.

e.g. Young Musician of the Year attracts attention because we ALL want to / like to be smug and clever in spotting and THEN FOLLOWING the egregious upcomers. so the recipe is there: like GQT, the BBC learns to GROW its audience.

Ideas:
1. Get more top musical schools on Choral Evensong / regular spots, from college based RNCM, RA, Guildh, RScotA, to schools Chets, Ampleforth, Eton, Winchester, and all manner of other schools round the country, the huge number of smashing youth orchestras / jazz / swing outfits round the nation, not just the big guns of NYO, NYScotsO. The BBC needs to be far more adventurous in chancing the arm. You get schools on, then adults / siblings etc tune in, and you are on the way to creating a new audience AND the next wave of artists. Such broadcasts encourage attendance at youth-based gigs, which in their turn engender interest.

2. Everyone knows and there is much talk and gnashing over the threatened status of music in schools in UK If a benighted government will not, then some major stakeholder / authority eg BBC has for its own continuance a huge stake in arresting a decline all can witness and document. The BBC has resources, know-how, access, prestige, and could put all these into fomenting schools / community youth music. Do we not all remember BBC Home Service Schools Music schedules, Music and Movement etc? With such platforms as the internet /utube etc available, why on earth the BBC has not made a vigorous attempt to exploit such outlets or create their own to inspire, activate and encourage the young listeners and thus to BUILD THEIR OWN NEW AUDIENCES amazes and saddens me no end.

No nation is just supermarket fodder: they have minds, sensibilities, senses of adventure, hearts and souls that also need / crave nurture. It is up to the truly big hitters like the BBC to roll up their sleeves, think big, think long, think creatively.

[french frank]

I didn't read the Thread title to mean that - rather "what (if anything) can the BBC do to enable young people to become aware that there is more to 'Music' than the stuff they most regularly - if not exclusively - encounter repeatedly every day"? (Even if a lot of that "stuff" is "encountered repeatedly every day" on BBC programmes.)

Ah. I read "the remit of BBC radio, specifically, r3 should include an obligation to promote a wider spectrum of music". My point was was that with five other music stations, why should R3 specifically widen its remit?

It doesn't attract young people because it's R3 and they don't listen to R3. The services they already access should widen their remits.

[Lat-Literal]

I didn't read the Thread title to mean that - rather "what (if anything) can the BBC do to enable young people to become aware that there is more to 'Music' than the stuff they most regularly - if not exclusively - encounter repeatedly every day"? (Even if a lot of that "stuff" is "encountered repeatedly every day" on BBC programmes.)

Oh.

Well, in the popular field a lot are focussed on the last few years and so much of that is the same. There is very little breadth or progress in the mainstream music industry and any radio which is focussed on the present can only consequently be very narrow. However, another lot will be far more aware of music in the 1960s-1990s than I ever was as a teenager of music in the 1920s-1950s. Consequently it's an entirely mixed picture. If it is a question about listening to more classical music and/or more music from other genres, isn't it about background mainly or an exciting experience of some sort? Obviously the media can help a bit with coverage of the Proms and the festivals but that is already being done. DracoM's points are good. Practical suggestions. But I suppose there is also the question of whether it is right to think much of it can or indeed should be heavily nudged.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ah. I read "the remit of BBC radio, specifically, r3 should include an obligation to promote a wider spectrum of music". My point was was that with five other music stations, why should R3 specifically widen its remit?

I agree - the Thread title doesn't specifically refer to R3, though. Another thing I could have suggested is that "Classical" (and "World" and "Jazz) Music(s) should make appearances as often on other radio stations as non-Classical repertoire appears on R3, as you say ...

It doesn't attract young people because it's R3 and they don't listen to R3. The services they already access should widen their remits.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Well, in the popular field a lot are focussed on the last few years and so much of that is the same. There is very little breadth or progress in the mainstream music industry and any radio which is focussed on the present can only consequently be very narrow. However, another lot will be far more aware of music in the 1960s-1990s than I ever was as a teenager of music in the 1920s-1950s.

Ah, interesting - and something that's occurred to me since the start of the "Pop Music on Un Chall" Thread started: I've often thought that students are much less knowledgeable about the Pop Music from before they were born than I was about Music from 1945 - 60 (because my mother always listened to R2).

If it is a question about listening to more classical music and/or more music from other genres, isn't it about background mainly or an exciting experience of some sort?

Less so, I think, nowadays, when the middle/upper-class "kudos" of Classical Music no longer holds sway. As a teacher, the kids I encountered who knew of "Classical Music" often did so more from their grandparents' "encouragement" than from their parents'. I agree entirely about "exciting experiences" of unfamiliar repertoire - that was what I had in mind when I suggested out-of-school trips to concerts and in-school visits from Musicians; get the repertoire(s) associated with pleasant experiences from an early age. (And give schools MONEY to provide experience playing instruments for every child: give every child that feeling of achievemnet of having performed in a concert in front of their proud parents and their friends - give them the social skills that arise from telling Mrs Battersby from next door all about playing in the school concert last night.)

DracoM's points are good. Practical suggestions.

But I suppose there is also the question of whether it is right to think much of it can or indeed should be heavily nudged.

I think that it very definitely is - not simply from the point of view that "if we don't, this repertoire will wither" (although that is true, and a valid point in itself) but from the point of view of Education: the promotion of wide-ranging skills, knowledge and imaginations in all our communities. Schools make Arts Education something to be looked forward to, and Arts Education makes schools places that kids can look forward to attending. The BBC has a vital part that it can play in such a rich process - if it wants to, and if we as a society want it to.

[DracoM]

[french frank]

And let's not forget that BBC has two dedicated channels for children: CBeebies and CBBC. That's where the very young audiences are. They have had some music series but I don't think they were very ambitious (sorry, I can't even view what's on television without being asked if I have a TV licence - need to check Radio Times). Nor on that often.

[MrGongGong]

Do you think the remit of BBC radio, perhaps specifically, r3 should include an obligation to promote a wider spectrum of music? Or do they do enough with r1, r1 extra, r2...

If you think they should then how should they do it?

Yes

and they already do to some extent
BUT remember The Treachery of Images

The La Monte Young Day at the Proms is a good example (if I say it enough it will be true, seems to work for other things these days )

[Lat-Literal]

Ah, interesting - and something that's occurred to me since the start of the "Pop Music on Un Chall" Thread started: I've often thought that students are much less knowledgeable about the Pop Music from before they were born than I was about Music from 1945 - 60 (because my mother always listened to R2).


Less so, I think, nowadays, when the middle/upper-class "kudos" of Classical Music no longer holds sway. As a teacher, the kids I encountered who knew of "Classical Music" often did so more from their grandparents' "encouragement" than from their parents'. I agree entirely about "exciting experiences" of unfamiliar repertoire - that was what I had in mind when I suggested out-of-school trips to concerts and in-school visits from Musicians; get the repertoire(s) associated with pleasant experiences from an early age. (And give schools MONEY to provide experience playing instruments for every child: give every child that feeling of achievemnet of having performed in a concert in front of their proud parents and their friends - give them the social skills that arise from telling Mrs Battersby from next door all about playing in the school concert last night.)





I think that it very definitely is - not simply from the point of view that "if we don't, this repertoire will wither" (although that is true, and a valid point in itself) but from the point of view of Education: the promotion of wide-ranging skills, knowledge and imaginations in all our communities. Schools make Arts Education something to be looked forward to, and Arts Education makes schools places that kids can look forward to attending. The BBC has a vital part that it can play in such a rich process - if it wants to, and if we as a society want it to.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments. The thread is indicating how the initial questions sweep outwards - you have taken it onto "the promoting of classical music" curve while I instinctively went onto a "BBC radio in the future" curve. Maybe neither is a bad thing. I don't have direct experience of young people today and am not qualified to talk about what takes place in schools. However, I was very much in a "youth culture" until about the age of 42 via gigs etc that itself had become middle aged - see the upper age range of the 6 music audience to fully get that point. Consequently as in many areas I have more - and more recent - experience in these matters than many and far less experience than many.

My range of reference points are fairly well known to posters here - an emphasis on singing in early schools which I think is important for a sense of involvement and community. The Arthur Davison concerts, some participatory and others as audience. The work of David Bedford in the 1970s. Very arguably, David Munrow. The original Italia Conti on the showbiz side. I am keen on Nordoff Robbins as an organisation for improving via music the health of children who would not have health in other circumstances. There has recently been discussion here about a core list of classical compositions for schools. All of these aspects and no doubt many more have enabled music to be opened up beyond the more formal routes which have mostly suited the advanced. When I say "advanced" I tend to think mainly of people from families with seriously strong abilities in playing instruments. There is a social class connotation there. You imply, I think, that classical music had a pull for some for having had a cache. I'm not sure that in itself is needed or is always helpful.

I understand what you say about your mother and R2. It does have wider application. I can vividly recall Two Way Family Favourites being in the home on the Light Programme before the late 1960s. The grandparents on my father's side had Pete Murray via a Rediffusion switch on the wall. My uncle - much younger than my parents - would have David Hamilton on in his car in the 1970s. But I think we need to be wary on these points for two reasons. One, to be a 17 year old now and have a reasonable awareness of Sgt Pepper is the equivalent to being a 17 year old in 1977, the year of punk, and have a reasonable understanding of some popular music made in 1927. I just don't think that happened. (Actually it did in my case as I often tuned into Brian Rust's "Mardi Gras" but that's really no yardstick - it was me and a few thousand Londoners all well over the age of 60/65)

Secondly, in the field of popular music which was often tribal and always rapidly changing across several decades, anything that was from about three years in the past would be dismissed by most as old hat unless there was an older brother which was obviously commonplace. In fact, the role of older siblings could have a current, broader relevance if identified in terms of the way it works or not today. There is also the point about some people being put off by musical involvement in families. I have known people who were Womad children and did not share my enthusiasm for the festival as an adult, having felt forced to be a part of it in adolescence. The board room became the lure in rebellion.

I do recall as a student in 1982 how we would start evenings in a pub with a tape of Perry Como in the background. There was affection for it but mainly on the grounds that it seemed so out of the ark. We associated it closely and also a lot of early country music with the nights of the "turns" at other places in the city which were where the older locals went. Even records by the Yardbirds and the Zombies on occasional jukeboxes seemed like period pieces. No one was to realise how long lasting the disposable music would be but it was boosted along the way by the good old fashioned concept of the magazine. The likes of Q magazine were instrumental in turning it all with hindsight into a coherent whole more akin to the way in which film was already being perceived. Essentially, when the clannish aspects diminished it was made into something more academic, albeit in the glossiest way. There is more than a hint of that approach in the packaging of the BBC Proms. In fact, the Proms are probably a little closer to a Q style than to, say, Gramophone.