Music in schools (again)

[MrGongGong]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39154242

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Why am I not surprised?

[MrGongGong]

Why am I not surprised?

An inevitable consequence i'm afraid

Never mind, Saint Simon can ride in on his horse and save us all with a shiny new concert hall for the folks in London

[DracoM]

And the rest of us on Planet North just hitchhike to catch just the ghost of the waft of strings on the southern breeze as we clamber over Hadrian's Wall into the Land of Milk and Money.
Yeah, right...................
Because clearly northern kids have no music in them nor to be brought of them or drop fed into them so who needs teachers and / or money. After all, after Breixt, we'll never need the European musical tradition again, it'll be on a floating island [ eg Laputa?] many hundreds of miles and light years away and won't be able to corrupt us into yearning ever again.

I knew there was a reason for it.

[Dave2002]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-39154242

Do I care? (we?)

Probably yes, but I find it all rather hard to justify. The other day, when in a discussion about falling attendances at concerts, and the price of concert tickets, and comparing them with theatre and other events, we got around to talking about rugby. The lowest price we could find for a very recent rugby match (admittedly at short notice - so perhaps cheaper tickets had been available earlier) was over £300, and we found that it was certainly possible to pay £2000 for the one off event.

As far as I know rugby is not significantly sponsored by the state (I might be corrected - but it seems to be financially viable in a way which music isn't). For me this seems a disaster, as I would rather have the cultural life of this country measured or represented by musicians, artists, actors etc., yet it does seem that there isn't a very strong audience for some of the arts. Opera currently seems moderately fashionable - at least amongst the better off - but obviously doesn't compare with football or rugby.

How can we justify pushing for art and music education, and expenditure on that? I have no problem personally - simply "I'd rather do it", but the great mass of the British public seem to vote with their feet and wallets - mostly wanting to keep their hands in their pockets, and their heads in the sands, and their ears tuned to .... Radio xxx?

Comments?!

[MrGongGong]

Do I care? (we?)

Probably yes, but I find it all rather hard to justify. The other day, when in a discussion about falling attendances at concerts, and the price of concert tickets, and comparing them with theatre and other events, we got around to talking about rugby. The lowest price we could find for a very recent rugby match (admittedly at short notice - so perhaps cheaper tickets had been available earlier) was over £300, and we found that it was certainly possible to pay £2000 for the one off event.

As far as I know rugby is not significantly sponsored by the state (I might be corrected - but it seems to be financially viable in a way which music isn't). For me this seems a disaster, as I would rather have the cultural life of this country measured or represented by musicians, artists, actors etc., yet it does seem that there isn't a very strong audience for some of the arts. Opera currently seems moderately fashionable - at least amongst the better off - but obviously doesn't compare with football or rugby.

How can we justify pushing for art and music education, and expenditure on that? I have no problem personally - simply "I'd rather do it", but the great mass of the British public seem to vote with their feet and wallets - mostly wanting to keep their hands in their pockets, and their heads in the sands, and their ears tuned to .... Radio xxx?

Comments?!

Smoking dope is probably more "popular" than sport and music

What on earth do you think "education" is for in the first place ?

[teamsaint]

And the rest of us on Planet North just hitchhike to catch just the ghost of the waft of strings on the southern breeze as we clamber over Hadrian's Wall into the Land of Milk and Money.
Yeah, right...................
Because clearly northern kids have no music in them nor to be brought of them or drop fed into them so who needs teachers and / or money. After all, after Breixt, we'll never need the European musical tradition again, it'll be on a floating island [ eg Laputa?] many hundreds of miles and light years away and won't be able to corrupt us into yearning ever again.

I knew there was a reason for it.

Have I missed something about a North / south divide in the article?

[Dave2002]

Smoking dope is probably more "popular" than sport and music

What on earth do you think "education" is for in the first place ?

Use to be sex. Times are changing.

[french frank]

How can we justify pushing for art and music education, and expenditure on that?

If you think the arts have any value at all, then it's to ensure, as far as possible, that they are available to all.

[doversoul1]

What on earth do you think "education" is for in the first place ?

This is from another education related article;

“The government assumes a career involves politics, journalism, law or accounting.
[…]
What’s success?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/feb/28/north-south-divide-academies-school-northern-powerhouse

Music doesn’t get you a job to be successful? What is education for indeed.

[DracoM]

Was referring to the Rattle in Metropolis for his 'NuHall'.
Actually, you have along way to go to beat the Royal in Nottingham.

[Richard Barrett]

How can we justify pushing for art and music education, and expenditure on that?

Because even if you see it in such stultifyingly economic terms it costs virtually nothing, compared for example with bombing people in poor countries or bailing out thieving banks or renewing entire systems of weapons of mass destruction that will never be used. On the other hand if you look at how those areas not only benefit children's education across all subjects but also open the way to means of fulfilment, cooperation, creative thinking and many other things that enhance our lives if we have the opportunity to experience and develop them, it becomes clear that what's really needed is a great deal more expenditure on them, not less, in order to give everyone the benefit of that potential and the choice of whether to keep it in their lives or not. As ff says, in other words. Seeing everything in bald terms of cost/benefit analysis is a symptom of what's wrong with society, not a rational and intelligent reaction to it.

[Dave2002]

Because even if you see it in such stultifyingly economic terms it costs virtually nothing, compared for example with bombing people in poor countries or bailing out thieving banks or renewing entire systems of weapons of mass destruction that will never be used. On the other hand if you look at how those areas not only benefit children's education across all subjects but also open the way to means of fulfilment, cooperation, creative thinking and many other things that enhance our lives if we have the opportunity to experience and develop them, it becomes clear that what's really needed is a great deal more expenditure on them, not less, in order to give everyone the benefit of that potential and the choice of whether to keep it in their lives or not. As ff says, in other words. Seeing everything in bald terms of cost/benefit analysis is a symptom of what's wrong with society, not a rational and intelligent reaction to it.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, but if the initial premise (and perhaps only one) is that everyone in a society like the UK has to have food, and a little box to live in, and adequate clothing - pretty much lower levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs then what's the point anyway? Governments may argue that way, and fail to cater for higher levels of cultural activity for all people across the whole of the country. After all, there is no point in giving any incentive for people to live outside London, hence development in the rest of the country - as anyone who really wants the facilities available there will migrate to the already over populated south east, and there is (arguably) no incentive to move out - as much of the rest of these isles is relatively speaking an under funded cultural desert.

Others can get cultural enrichment from TV - including Eastenders and Coronation Street and many other programmes, and for radio - The Archers.

You extend discussion to other countries, but unfortunately the UK is now about to embark on what might turn out to be very isolationist courses of action.

[Lat-Literal]

There is a question about the nature of education where facilities are provided. The Brit school for performing arts is in my borough. How many on this list of alumni "do it for you (plural)?" - Marsha Ambrosius, Adele, Tara McDonald, Leo the Lion, Stefan Abingdon, Katy B, The Feeling, Imogen Heap, Jessie J, Cush Jumbo, Rizzle Kicks, The Kooks, Dane Bowers, Breakage, Jamie Woon, The Noisettes, Ella Eyre, Bashy, Karis Anderson, Shawn Emanuel, Polly Scattergood, King Krule, Loyle Carner, Leona Lewis, Raye, Ashley Madekwe, Katie Melua, Kate Nash, Shingai Shoniwa, Amy Winehouse, Ella Eyre, Joel Pott, Rainy Milo, Rickie Haywood Williams, Charlene Soraia, Jessica Morgan (Spark) and Antonio Orozco.

[Dave2002]

Only heard of five of them, and one of them is no longer with us. None of the extant ones do anything for me.