Women composers

[Richard Barrett]

I wondered if the reward system,( in which commissioning is a powerful component) connected to other structural issues, (such as class) might lead to more imbalance of one sort or another, including gender.

I see now what you mean. Class is certainly an issue (cf. the rough statistical analysis I did a few months ago on the proportion of UK composers educated privately, which as expected was way in excess of the proportion in the general population), and where this is the case it usually involves the kind of conservatism which would also exclude women and ethnic minorities. I wonder also how the imbalance varies from one country to another. Here in Serbia most of the composers I know are women. Not that one should pay much attention to such anecdotal evidence of course.

[Lat-Literal]

Does anyone know if there are Theatre organizations that promote workshops etc for inexperienced "playwrights" on the lines that Sound & Music promotes such activities for creative Musicians?

I'd be interested to see if there is a similarly declining number of women taking part in theatre schemes. Is the decline from an already worrying 35% applying for Summer School Music courses, to a meagre 25% for "various professional artist development programmes" reflected in Theatre, too? And, whilst novelists, poets, and visual Artists are more in the public view, what are the ratios between male and female applicants for any professional artist development programmes in those areas.

In short, does it merely seem that it is just the Music world that has this problem because we have the statistics from organizations such as Sound & Music?

I don't have the answers to your questions but the gender gap at A level is interesting. The most female A'level subject, eg the highest percentage of participants at A'level who are female is Performing/Expressive Arts (over 90%). Art and Design is as high as fifth (behind Welsh, Sociology and Psychology) at nearly 80%. English is 7th and Drama is 9th - over 70%. The other most female A'level subjects in the Top 13 are Communication Studies, Religious Studies, French, Irish, Critical Thinking and Spanish. German, Classics, Other Languages, Media/Film/TV Studies and History are all in the Top 20 - so that is where all the arts etc priorities are. Music is 25th between Political Science and Business Studies.

Should I stand for election, my main education policy is, unashamedly, the return of grammar schools and the abolition of private schools, ie private schools to become grammar schools. In other words, a "mainstream Conservative left wing Labour" policy that has never been proposed by any party and never will be. More's the pity. It could change a lot.

[P. G. Tipps]

People who are in positions of power will always make things up to try and maintain their position
So my question to you is
How many young composers do YOU come across in your life ?
How many young women have you encountered who have been discouraged by attitudes that belong in history ?
"Quality" and "expertise" are interesting things to explore, do you think that men are inherently more able of producing work that displays this ?

Maybe part of the problem is that your "imho" lacks "h" ?

Oh yes. of course!

But the subject matter is not my humility or perceived lack of it. I simply asked for concrete evidence of 'obstacles' which has not exactly been forthcoming.

I would again point out that it is not myself who has any problem with 'gender imbalance' in music composition any more than in nursing, secretarial work, or some of the very top jobs in UK politics!

So, unlike the OP, I again stress that I don't have a problem in the matter at all!

[MrGongGong]

But the subject matter is not my humility or perceived lack of it. I simply asked for concrete evidence of 'obstacles' which has not exactly been forthcoming.
!

Well those people who HAVE experience of these things in educational and other contexts have said that these things exists.
What's your problem in believing them ?
The SAM research is pretty clear IMV

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I don't have the answers to your questions but the gender gap at A level is interesting. The most female A'level subject, eg the highest percentage of participants at A'level who are female is Performing/Expressive Arts (over 90%). Art and Design is as high as fifth (behind Welsh, Sociology and Psychology) at nearly 80%. English is 7th and Drama is 9th - over 70%. The other most female A'level subjects in the Top 13 are Communication Studies, Religious Studies, French, Irish, Critical Thinking and Spanish. German, Classics, Other Languages, Media/Film/TV Studies and History are all in the Top 20 - so that is where all the arts etc priorities are. Music is 25th between Political Science and Business Studies.

This is very interesting, Lats, but I'm a little uncertain about what these statistics mean. The only Exam. Board to offer "A"-level Performing & Expressive Arts is OCR - so it's 90% of the candidates at the schools who offer the subject who are female. I can't find out from OCR how many candidates they had for the subject, and this would make a difference. A school that has 10 students following Ex/Perf Arts will have fewer girls studying it than the Drama class of 15 in the same school. So, with an "A"-level Music class of twenty students, even if the percentage ratio male/female ratio is 50%, there are still more females studying "A"-level Music than there are studying Ex/Perf Arts.

(Grammar Schools wouldn't solve anything - they rely on selection Exams, and wealthier parents can afford to pay for extra Tutoring to get through the entrance Exams.)

[Lat-Literal]

This is very interesting, Lats, but I'm a little uncertain about what these statistics mean. The only Exam. Board to offer "A"-level Performing & Expressive Arts is OCR - so it's 90% of the candidates at the schools who offer the subject who are female. I can't find out from OCR how many candidates they had for the subject, and this would make a difference. A school that has 10 students following Ex/Perf Arts will have fewer girls studying it than the Drama class of 15 in the same school. So, with an "A"-level Music class of twenty students, even if the percentage ratio male/female ratio is 50%, there are still more females studying "A"-level Music than there are studying Ex/Perf Arts.

(Grammar Schools wouldn't solve anything - they rely on selection Exams, and wealthier parents can afford to pay for extra Tutoring to get through the entrance Exams.)

What you say is true in terms of the numbers but the statistics tell us a great deal about gender trends. I think they also say quite a lot about the changing nature of the range of subjects being offered. When I came through the system, A'levels in Politics, History and English were regarded as very much at the softer end. Two out of three of those are now unequivocally at the male end of the spectrum. That is a clear indication of how many arts/social science based subjects there are now - Welsh, Sociology, Psychology, Drama, Communication Studies, Irish, Critical Thinking, Spanish and Media/Film/TV Studies. None of these subjects were available at that level. Music is in competition with them all.

On the second point, I'm sorry ferney but I have to give it short shrift. It's the Angela "I didn't pass my eleven plus and it was all because I was poor" Rayner line that has been trotted out by the Labour Party since before her birth. I had no tuition. I am very far from bright and none us could have cared less at the time what senior school I was to attend. The choice was given to me as to whether I spent Saturdays sitting the equivalent to the eleven plus exams. I chose to do them because they could be fun and they were fun.

I sailed through them from a school in which the head teacher had advised that no one would pass them. Two of my friends did the same. Three out of 26 in the borough to get local authority funded places at independent schools following the abolition of grammar schools. And the howling and wailing from all the posh parents who had paid through the nose for their kids to get through to no avail was the first sign to me that adults weren't all they were reckoned to be. I think the argument is total bunkum. It always has been.

[Richard Barrett]

I think the argument is total bunkum. It always has been.

There are plenty of statistical studies to back it up though, with a much larger sample than yours (or mine, since I expect I would also have got into grammar school too if there had been such things at the time, which I'm very glad was not the case). It is a fact that the most important factor in predicting academic "success" is the wealth of your background, all other things being equal.

[Lat-Literal]

There are plenty of statistical studies to back it up though, with a much larger sample than yours (or mine, since I expect I would also have got into grammar school too if there had been such things at the time, which I'm very glad was not the case). It is a fact that the most important factor in predicting academic "success" is the wealth of your background, all other things being equal.

Well, as I say, I didn't get into a grammar school because they had been abolished locally. I would love to see the statistical studies because aside from about 20 local authorities which kept grammar schools they would predate 1974. Unless, of course, they are theoretical studies. Anyhow, let's see them. There is some sort of lacuna in the minds of policy makers who think that because academic success is linked as a trend to wealth that intelligence is wealth. It isn't, however much it can become true where it can be bought. I don't believe for one moment that tests can't be designed in a way that resists private tuition. Ours were verbal reasoning among other things. Either people have it or they just don't.

[ahinton]

There are plenty of statistical studies to back it up though, with a much larger sample than yours (or mine, since I expect I would also have got into grammar school too if there had been such things at the time, which I'm very glad was not the case). It is a fact that the most important factor in predicting academic "success" is the wealth of your background, all other things being equal.

Well, I attended a "grammar school", at which I was largely an academic waste of time; no money had been forthcoming to send me to a quaintly named "public school" (meaning a "private school") but, like so many such schools today, money had nevertheless to be paid towards the costs of the peripherals that were attendant upon such "grammar school" education and that went down like the most poisonous of lead balloons with those prevailed upon to stump it up. That said (and to return to the topic), are those girls that might feel an inclination towards a career in musical composition and who attend private schools or grammar schools likely to have more encouragement there to be composers than those who don't? I do not pretend to know the answer to that but I suspect nevertheless that it might be a question worth asking.

By the way, here's a comment that I received from a UK female composer with whom I had been discussing this phenomenon not so long ago:
"Re women's music - I'm sick and tired of hearing my music described as watery, sensitive, hand-knitted (yes, really) and fragile. I think it is robust and powerful. Sometimes preconceptions override EARS."

No names, no pack-drill (and no value-judgements on my part), naturally...

[Lat-Literal]

Well, I attended a "grammar school", at which I was largely an academic waste of time; no money had been forthcoming to send me to a quaintly named "public school" (meaning a "private school") but, like so many such schools today, money had nevertheless to be paid towards the costs of the peripherals that were attendant upon such "grammar school" education and that went down like the most poisonous of lead balloons with those prevailed upon to stump it up. That said (and to return to the topic), are those girls that might feel an inclination towards a career in musical composition and who attend private schools or grammar schools likely to have more encouragement there to be composers than those who don't? I do not pretend to know the answer to that but I suspect nevertheless that it might be a question worth asking.

By the way, here's a comment that I received from a UK female composer with whom I had been discussing this phenomenon not so long ago:
"Re women's music - I'm sick and tired of hearing my music described as watery, sensitive, hand-knitted (yes, really) and fragile. I think it is robust and powerful. Sometimes preconceptions override EARS."

No names, no pack-drill (and no value-judgements on my part), naturally...

Most people know what happens there. In Year 1 you are told that while it isn't compulsory it is expected that you would want private tuition in a musical instrument at an additional cost. That probably doesn't happen in the state sector as much. We couldn't afford such a thing so I didn't have them although I was in the choir. The emphasis in a grammar school on such matters would ideally be supported by funding. As matters stand, those who pay for private sector schooling just add in a few hundred extra quid for the bassoon lessons. Incidentally, perhaps all those who think that it is all about paying for tuition might look at the royal family's academic record. Atrocious. Now where are those key studies please?

[Richard Barrett]

where are those key studies please?

Try this: http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cp/CASEpaper164.pdf As for the royal family, I'm surprised any of them can even read, with all the inbreeding.

[teamsaint]

Try this: http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cp/CASEpaper164.pdf As for the royal family, I'm surprised any of them can even read, with all the inbreeding.

How do you know that they can?

[ahinton]

Most people know what happens there. In Year 1 you are told that while it isn't compulsory it is expected that you would want private tuition in a musical instrument at an additional cost. That probably doesn't happen in the state sector as much. We couldn't afford such a thing so I didn't have them although I was in the choir. The emphasis in a grammar school on such matters would ideally be supported by funding. As matters stand, those who pay for private sector schooling just add in a few hundred extra quid for the bassoon lessons. Incidentally, perhaps those who think that it is all about paying for tuition might look at the royal family's academic record. Atrocious. Now where are those key studies please?

Well, I happened to be lucky in that, at the grammar school that I attended, there was at the time a scheme that meant that every entrant MUST study an instrument for at least one term (said instrument being largely a matter of the entrant's choice and usually provided by the school at the expense of those funding it) unless the parent or guardian specifically objected to this in advance in writing and that said study could be given up at the end of that term only should the student wish; I didn't expect to get involved because I was already studying composition and trying to struggle with the piano outside the school environment, but the school nevertheless provided to me a composition teacher (an ex-Webern pupil, as it happens) and shoved an oboe into my unwilling hands and said "here's your teacher". Those really were the days. OK, it was an all-male grammar school so it's not as though (returning to the topic) I could say that these privileges were offered to girls there, but...

Oh, and there weren't no parental welf in my case (or not declared or used, anyway)...

[doversoul1]

That said (and to return to the topic), are those girls that might feel an inclination towards a career in musical composition and who attend private schools or grammar schools likely to have more encouragement there to be composers than those who don't? I do not pretend to know the answer to that but I suspect nevertheless that it might be a question worth asking.

One possibility is that girls from more comfortably off families can ‘afford’ to go into jobs that do not promise the income to pay the bills. The same could be said of boys, I suppose, so this doesn’t help much about gender issue.

One of my (male) neighbours is a retired history teacher who is a very gifted musician but did not consider music as his career. His father was a carpenter and he was grateful enough for his parents for letting him go to university instead of expecting him to get a job at 16. (I suppose this is a class issue)

[Lat-Literal]

Try this: http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cp/CASEpaper164.pdf As for the royal family, I'm surprised any of them can even read, with all the inbreeding.

That paper from 1991 (!) is principally focussed on educational attainment from adolescence which isn't relevant to examination at age 11. It says at the outset that it is a first study so it missed the bulk of grammar schools by a couple of decades. To the extent that wealth as a trend can be directly linked to abilities in educational attainment, that will be true whatever the schooling or lack of it. Buying into private education may accentuate the significance of wealth where there is ability. As I said, I am against private schooling.

In the case of tuition-proof tests for grammar schools, nothing is bought so then you have to ask whether it is fair that more people of wealth may have children with academic ability. That is, where others of little or no wealth may also have children with academic ability. That is as fair as anything in life. Some children have a head start in athletics. Other children come from very musical families so is that fair? Not necessarily but it can't be socially engineered out of the equation. Academic ability is more easily bashed.

I know the key problem for children of poorer backgrounds with intelligence. In the private sector they can initially be overwhelmed by a belief that because everyone else there is wealthy and "posh" they must be more intelligent than them. Five years later, when half of them drop out it becomes clear that it was all in the attitude and presentation. Leftists brought about the massive cultural gap between private schools and the comprehensive system. They are not friends of those who while academic by inclination are suited to a culture less one-sided in class and wealth terms. I never regained confidence from being at the wrong school culturally. And the comp down the road would have been even worse.

We were talking about music. We were talking about women composers. I suggest they would do better in a system that is less politically cliched. The same is true of many others.

Incidentally, I do look around me. I see the well-to-do husband and wife groups enjoying several bottles of wine with a Sunday meal as a dozen Tristrams and Mirandas run back and forth pretty brainlessly and entirely separately because they are "the kids". What are "the kids" doing now? Chortle. You need to read to children at an early age. You need to have Radio 4 on or BBC 4 on or if you want them to have an interest in music, Radio 3 on, god forbid. And then you need to discuss those things with them rather than being an MP out at all hours deciding what everyone is and what everyone should do on the basis of your own personal issues, ongoing, and post student politics. None of that costs a penny.