Women composers

[Richard Barrett]

https://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.co...mens-day-2017/

Very good.

In answer to PGT: yes there is plenty of evidence of obstacles, it is clear surely even to you that in order to "succeed" as a woman in almost any walk of life it's necessary for you to prove yourself in a way that it isn't for men, and the result is that women are underrepresented in very many areas, composing music being only one of them.

[ahinton]

https://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.co...mens-day-2017/

Interesting - but there seems still to be a tacit implication that merely talking around the subject and passively accepting that there appear to be no obvious reasons why things are not what they ought to be is somehow sufficient of itself, when this matter an only be seriously address by genuine dedicated research into why musical composition today (and to a lesser extent performance) remains largely male-dominated when, as Richard points out, other creative/recreative artistic pursuits are not.

Good as this piece is insofar as it goes, the reporting of an overheard conversation on a train is no substitute for taking the subject by the scruff of its neck and determining to ascertain what lies behind this gender imbalance and who might be responsible for its maintenance.

[ahinton]

Very good.

In answer to PGT: yes there is plenty of evidence of obstacles, it is clear surely even to you that in order to "succeed" as a woman in almost any walk of life it's necessary for you to prove yourself in a way that it isn't for men, and the result is that women are underrepresented in very many areas, composing music being only one of them.

I don't think that this is as bad as once it was, but there clearly remains a long way to go in general terms; however, given that musical composition seems to be especially adversely affected by this gender imbalance issue, one cannot help but wonder why it's being left behind when so many other areas appear at least to be evidencing some degree of progress.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interesting - but there seems still to be a tacit implication that merely talking around the subject and passively accepting that there appear to be no obvious reasons why things are not what they ought to be is somehow sufficient of itself, when this matter an only be seriously address by genuine dedicated research into why musical composition today (and to a lesser extent performance) remains largely male-dominated when, as Richard points out, other creative/recreative artistic pursuits are not.

Oh - I didn't "read" this at all. Both the "35 Practical Steps a Man Can Take" link, and the suggestion that all concert planners ensure that at least one composition by a woman is included in every concert they organise, suggest more than "mere talking around a subject". Indeed, whilst "genuine dedicated research" would be invaluable, at least as much might be moved forward by practical actions of this nature.

[french frank]

https://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.co...mens-day-2017/

Right at the top: "a particular issue that was noted was a lack of female role models" which is what I thought was interesting about Ten Pieces I, II and III - the new pieces were by women. I'm sure Anna Meredith involved herself quite closely with the project/children, and perhaps Kerry Andrews will too. And those role models are going into schools.

[P. G. Tipps]

Very good.

In answer to PGT: yes there is plenty of evidence of obstacles, it is clear surely even to you that in order to "succeed" as a woman in almost any walk of life it's necessary for you to prove yourself in a way that it isn't for men, and the result is that women are underrepresented in very many areas, composing music being only one of them.

The 'even to you' bit is exactly the sort of silly remark which you ascribed to others in a previous post ...

You have not answered my question. I do not deny (only a complete ignoramus would!) that women are 'underrepresented in very many areas, composing music being only one of them' though I would point out that this also applies to men in other 'areas'.

There are now women in all fields of work ... indeed the leaders of the UK, Scotland and N. Ireland are currently women and indeed all three main parties in Scotland are run by women ... but no talk of gender imbalance there!

I applaud these women who have succeeded and wish them well. I do not have a problem with this at all.These women have proved they are the best and good luck to them!

It's just I don't honestly understand why, on the other hand, you should apparently object to there being more male composers than their female counterparts?

Surely in any field it should be about quality and expertise, not gender, race or any other complete irrelevance (imho) ... ?

[french frank]

... indeed the leaders of the UK, Scotland and N. Ireland are currently women and indeed all three main parties in Scotland are run by women ... but no talk of gender imbalance there!

Isn't that because within the general category 'Political Leaders' the gender imbalance is the other way?

[ahinton]

Oh - I didn't "read" this at all. Both the "35 Practical Steps a Man Can Take" link, and the suggestion that all concert planners ensure that at least one composition by a woman is included in every concert they organise, suggest more than "mere talking around a subject". Indeed, whilst "genuine dedicated research" would be invaluable, at least as much might be moved forward by practical actions of this nature.

The "35 Practical Steps a Man Can Take" is of a general rather than specific musically oriented nature, it relates to commendations of male support of "feminism" (a term that I place in ""s only because it strikes me as an indictment of the male of the species that it needed to be invented at all) and is not in any case by the author of this piece but by someone else and dates from almost three years ago, during which time it is not obvious whether or how the situation in respect of female composers might have improved.

Practical actions of the kind that you mention would of course be welcome and could only help towards redressing this imbalance but someone somewhere needs, I think, to carry out and present the kinds of research of which I wrote in order to persuade those in positions to take such actions that such a problem exists and that it is vital that it be addressed.

[ahinton]

There are now women in all fields of work ... indeed the leaders of the UK, Scotland and N. Ireland are currently women

Haven't they always been women? Sorry, I admit to frivolity but assure everyone reading it that it's merely momentary. Yes, of course those three leaders are women (although one of them might not be leading for much longer).

It's just I don't honestly understand why, on the other hand, you should apparently object to there being more male composers than their female counterparts?

I did not read that Richard "objected" to this; indeed, in common with other contributors here, I take his concern to be why that is the case and what can be done to redress this imbalance. If you are aware of some kind of "just cause and impediment" to there being a more even division of creative labour between women and men composers, please outline it here!

Surely in any field it should be about quality and expertise, not gender, race or any other complete irrelevance (imho) ... ?

Yes, but I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the reason why there seem to be so many fewer female composers than male ones today is that comparatively few of the former have the requisite "expertise" to create music of sufficiently high "quality" (and, after all, is all the music by male composers of equal "quality" and the product of equal "expertise"?)...

[MrGongGong]

Surely in any field it should be about quality and expertise, not gender, race or any other complete irrelevance (imho) ... ?

People who are in positions of power will always make things up to try and maintain their position
So my question to you is
How many young composers do YOU come across in your life ?
How many young women have you encountered who have been discouraged by attitudes that belong in history ?
"Quality" and "expertise" are interesting things to explore, do you think that men are inherently more able of producing work that displays this ?

Maybe part of the problem is that your "imho" lacks "h" ?

[Lat-Literal]

That's a good point - many have indeed said that Sound and Music is not representative of the entire community of creative musicians in the UK. I don't know whether it does or not, being so far out of that particular loop. But the issue here is not so much the representation of women composers of the past as the encouragement (or not) for women to consider devoting themselves to musical creativity in the present and future. I agree that musical composition is some distance behind the visual arts in this regard and a long way behind literature.

there is some interesting recent discussion around gender balance in the Scottish folk scene online.

https://thesession.org/discussions/40232

http://katemolleson.com/on-scottishness-folk-music-and-gender-balance/

I checked a couple of folk festival lineups for 2017 and there is a considerable gender imbalance, which one might consider a bit surprising in a genre where there are plenty of high profile female acts.

Thank you for these. I confess that my interest in the 21st Century in all respects is minimal. The 20th and 19th centuries are what matter to me. I suppose it is just possible that the well-known connections between mathematics and music might be one reason why men are more inclined to stick with musical composition. Maths also fares better among males. The Scottish folk "trads" are understood, I think, to be highly competitive. Mary Ann Kennedy would probably smile a little when and if making that point clear while also emphasizing the academic research of women like her mother, the way in which that has been taken forward on a practical basis in education and womens' initiatives such as last year's "Songs of Separation". Instinctively, I do not sign up to modern competitive societies favouring men rather than women. I think they favour the very highly competitive.

Some issues arise which bring out the old fashioned side in me. The woman who has recently been promoted to head up the fire service is intending to banish macho culture by tackling, quote, "hairy arsed" men. That sort of comment suggests to me that she may have accomodated a significant part of the culture herself. Perhaps that is needed. I don't know but what I do know is what I experienced in the public sector. While a majority of senior positions are occupied be men - just - there is no doubt in my mind that the male and female managers born in the 1930s-1950s who I knew both had a preference for rewarding upwardly mobile women albeit for different reasons. Working class white men tended to be more in the category of all black men. The worst abuse I ever saw there was when a manager of one my friends stormed into our office, walloped him over the head so that he almost fell and called him a dope before storming out. We had to at least admire the chutzpah of it. Kevin was in his twenties then and he is about six foot two but, you know, mild.

Generally, I do prefer the days when Kenyans didn't train but ran daily as a part of their usual routine and then somehow managed to turn up for the Olympics and win by several miles. The read across with music and everything else is that natural talent often has no place in a time of obsessively integrated structural organisation. Women with practical and sensitive artistic skills might themselves run with the bureaucracy until the time when they feel they have life priorities. Men may put up with that sort of thing more being as a trend both keen on rules of the game to be adhered to or ignored as seems best for ultimately winning and other-worldly dreamers. Someone mentioned politicians. I rest my case.

[teamsaint]

I wonder if literature , for example, is an area where more " normal" economic dynamics tend to apply rather more powerfully, and where women are able to exploit that norm better.
As we see ( I think) in high level conducting, patronage and other " non normal" economic dynamics perhaps hold greater sway. Maybe there is some of that in the commission driven composition world, which affects gender balance?

[Richard Barrett]

I wonder if literature , for example, is an area where more " normal" economic dynamics tend to apply rather more powerfully, and where women are able to exploit that norm better.
As we see ( I think) in high level conducting, patronage and other " non normal" economic dynamics perhaps hold greater sway. Maybe there is some of that in the commission driven composition world, which affects gender balance?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, ts, could you explain this "normal"/"non normal" economic dynamics a bit more?

[teamsaint]

I'm not sure what you mean by that, ts, could you explain this "normal"/"non normal" economic dynamics a bit more?

More questions than answers from me really RB.

But in literature, it is a relatively big economic world. Lots of books published, lots of publishers, many authors, with fairly transparent reward systems that are driven by commercial sales, which is more or less in the realms of economic norms. At certain levels ( not in big corporate boardrooms though) women have over time been able to start to exploit those economic norms and systems.

In the classical composition world, much less lucrative as a total market, I wondered if the reward system,( in which commissioning is a powerful component) connected to other structural issues, ( such as class) might lead to more imbalance of one sort or another, including gender.

Hope that makes a bit more sense.


Apologies for bringing things like markets into this, BTW......wouldn't be an issue in a better world......

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Does anyone know if there are Theatre organizations that promote workshops etc for inexperienced "playwrights" on the lines that Sound & Music promotes such activities for creative Musicians?

I'd be interested to see if there is a similarly declining number of women taking part in theatre schemes. Is the decline from an already worrying 35% applying for Summer School Music courses, to a meagre 25% for "various professional artist development programmes" reflected in Theatre, too? And, whilst novelists, poets, and visual Artists are more in the public view, what are the ratios between male and female applicants for any professional artist development programmes in those areas.

In short, does it merely seem that it is just the Music world that has this problem because we have the statistics from organizations such as Sound & Music?