Women composers

[Richard Barrett]

How do you know that they can?

I guess I don't. They do have to sign their names now and again, but since they only have one each that's not too taxing.

[Richard Barrett]

To the extent that wealth as a trend can be directly linked to abilities in educational attainment, that will be true whatever the schooling or lack of it.

That is true of course. I'm sure there are more recent papers on this subject, but since I'm (supposed to be) working this evening I didn't have time to shop around and took the first thing I found. Anyway it isn't strictly related to the thread subject, except in so far as since class is related to educational attainment (which is surely uncontroversial), the innate conservatism (with both sizes of "c") of the wealthy class will manifest itself to some extent in patriarchalism, which might be part of the explanation for women composers being in such a minority.

[Lat-Literal]

That is true of course. I'm sure there are more recent papers on this subject, but since I'm (supposed to be) working this evening I didn't have time to shop around and took the first thing I found. Anyway it isn't strictly related to the thread subject, except in so far as since class is related to educational attainment (which is surely uncontroversial), the innate conservatism (with both sizes of "c") of the wealthy class will manifest itself to some extent in patriarchalism, which might be part of the explanation for women composers being in such a minority.

Mainly yes, Richard, to those points but only the mildest yes on "since class is related to educational attainment", ie most of us are all ultimately related to each other genetically and the word "is" is more relevant to today than 35 years ago. There may be more people in higher education now courtesy of Mr Blair but where I ended up is now unrecognizable. That's because it is part of some Russell Group and stuffed to the gills with privately educated elites - the long-term impact of abandoning both grammar schools and direct grant.

You have tied this discussion back to the OP which is right. Gender imbalance re women and attainment in music composition has been with us for all time in a context where most who earn a living in music composition emanate from a private education. There is no historical evidence that it will easily change within the private sector. In contrast, girls who have not had a private education need better opportunities than they have had before. Either existing schools must change radically or new schools are needed. I favour the latter.

[ahinton]

That is true of course. I'm sure there are more recent papers on this subject, but since I'm (supposed to be) working this evening I didn't have time to shop around and took the first thing I found. Anyway it isn't strictly related to the thread subject, except in so far as since class is related to educational attainment (which is surely uncontroversial), the innate conservatism (with both sizes of "c") of the wealthy class will manifest itself to some extent in patriarchalism, which might be part of the explanation for women composers being in such a minority.

Even so, why in composition rather more than those visual arts and literary pursuits?

[P. G. Tipps]

I don't think anyone is saying that children of well-off families don't have greater opportunities than those less fortunate. This applies to many things not just music and, of course, also applies to boys as well as girls.

In my own upbringing. which could be loosely described as lower middle-class, I was one of five children, the other four all being female (no predictable wisecracks please!) All my siblings took up a music instrument but I, to my later regret, did not.

I had exactly the same opportunities as my sisters but wrongly decided I had better things to do at the time. A 'survey' of the Tipps Snr family would have indicated a clear 'gender imbalance' when it came to music study, that's for sure!

Many more women are entering the fields of science, medicine and business which can only benefit society as far as total numbers are concerned (gender is irrelevant to me). Furthermore there are more good women conductors around these days than ever before and I'm not aware there is any great lack of female presence in orchestras and solo performance.

Maybe, just maybe, when it comes to music composition more women than men simply decide that they might have 'better things to do' with their lives.

Another distinct 'possibility'?

[greenilex]

My views on this have to do with the problem of girls' attainment in mixed schools.

The argument could go like this: some boys and men resent bossy women. Composers and conductors have the final say in how their music is performed. So, unless the woman's music is for women only, she may be reluctant to boss the performers in an "unfeminine" way. So she lets the pursuit of popularity interfere with what she really needs to do...

[Richard Barrett]

The argument could go like this: some boys and men resent bossy women. Composers and conductors have the final say in how their music is performed. So, unless the woman's music is for women only, she may be reluctant to boss the performers in an "unfeminine" way.

This is a convincing argument to be sure - habitually women would be called "bossy" when a man displaying exactly the same behaviour would be called "authoritative" or something similar.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

This is a convincing argument to be sure - habitually women would be called "bossy" when a man displaying exactly the same behaviour would be called "authoritative" or something similar.

Yes - this exact point was raised in Helen Castor's She Wolves about Empress Matilda and the other Plantagenet Queens.

Greenilex's comment reminded me of the time in the early eighties when some junior Education Official responded to the research that showed that whilst boys performed better academically in mixed schools, girls did better in single sex schools. The suggested solution - I hope ironically - was to put all the girls into All Girls schools and all the boys into mixed schools.

[Richard Barrett]

put all the girls into All Girls schools and all the boys into mixed schools.

And this was before the days of Iain Duncan Smith!

[ahinton]

And this was before the days of Iain Duncan Smith!

!!!

[ahinton]

Yes - this exact point was raised in Helen Castor's She Wolves about Empress Matilda and the other Plantagenet Queens.

Greenilex's comment reminded me of the time in the early eighties when some junior Education Official responded to the research that showed that whilst boys performed better academically in mixed schools, girls did better in single sex schools. The suggested solution - I hope ironically - was to put all the girls into All Girls schools and all the boys into mixed schools.

Hmmm - just like the old gag about the research that purported to show that the part of a train most at risk of accident is the rear coach, so they removed all the rear coaches from trains...

[MrGongGong]

In my own upbringing. which could be loosely described as lower middle-class, I was one of five children, the other four all being female (no predictable wisecracks please!) All my siblings took up a music instrument but I, to my later regret, did not.

I had exactly the same opportunities as my sisters

Have you asked them ?
Or simply assumed that because you see no difference that none exists ?

And where was this country you grew up in where men and women had "exactly the same" opportunities ? because it sure isn't the UK (NOT that i'm suggesting that everything is awful here and everywhere else is wonderful etc etc etc zzzzzz)

Hope you foot is getting better but you seem to insist on shooting at it

[teamsaint]

Have you asked them ?
Or simply assumed that because you see no difference that none exists ?

And where was this country you grew up in where men and women had "exactly the same" opportunities ? because it sure isn't the UK (NOT that i'm suggesting that everything is awful here and everywhere else is wonderful etc etc etc zzzzzz)

Hope you foot is getting better but you seem to insist on shooting at it

I think that it is very important to challenge lazy assumptions, and most particularly our own.
I was really pulled up short when looking at those folk festival listings the other day.

Anyway, to repeat myself from another thread, really enjoyed the interview with Anne Dudley on The Sound of Cinema this afternoon on R3.

Certainly made my trip to the car wash a good deal more entertaining than it might have been.

[P. G. Tipps]

Have you asked them ?
Or simply assumed that because you see no difference that none exists ?

And where was this country you grew up in where men and women had "exactly the same" opportunities ? because it sure isn't the UK (NOT that i'm suggesting that everything is awful here and everywhere else is wonderful etc etc etc zzzzzz)

Hope you foot is getting better but you seem to insist on shooting at it

Well the ability to read and understand simple English might be something of an advantage on any sort of internet forum in the UK.

As described in my earlier post my clearly more intelligent female siblings and myself had the same opportunities to study music ... I, alone in my utter male stupidity, declined this golden opportunity. My extremely wise female siblings didn't.

When one refers to 'siblings' one is (hopefully) referring to a family situation not the inhabitants of a whole country. An everyday pocket-dictionary will make that abundantly clear.

I'd have thought you, of all Forumites, would have been applauding that personal admission of female superiority in the Tipps' childhood home, Ms GG, instead of again obsessing about the state of my perfectly healthy foot!