Women composers

[Richard Barrett]

When the point of equality is reached, the subject will be more important

Also, in this case the subject wasn't originally thought by any composer to be appropriate, if I understand what EA is saying, but was proposed by someone else (who?). Der Zeit ihre Kunst, der Kunst ihre Freiheit, as the famous inscription says.

I'm still interested in hearing ideas about how education could be changed to bring that point closer, specifically where being musically creative is concerned.

[Richard Barrett]

I posted the link because I felt it was something that was addressing issues of composition in music education not necessarily those of gender imbalance.

Well OK. I was struck in particular between the declining proportion of female students at ascending levels of education in composition. It's an issue which is of course particularly relevant to the technological aspect of contemporary music. While the number of people applying to study electronic composition is increasing, the proportion of women among applicants remains quite low, is my experience. I think it's urgent to consider how this situation might be addressed. Having a larger proportion of women on faculties is an obvious step.

[Lat-Literal]

"From GCSE onwards, the gap between male and female applications widened – from 50% at GCSE level, to the 35% female applicants to our summer school, to the 25% female applicants to Sound and Music’s various professional artist development programmes". Does that represent "every single stage of development" or is it just a comment from "Sound and Music", a modern idea of charity combining four organisations, about women not being as inclined to proceed in their development in the direction of the charity concerned?

There are no doubt important considerations about women composers in the present and in the future but those are likely to be more about nuance than ever was true in history, if recent experience is the key signpost. The overwhelming majority of classical music broadcast on R3 and performed in concert halls across the world was written by people who are now dead. That it is also predominantly male composition largely reflects earlier inequalities and/or biases. Similar points can be made about black and mixed race composers.

The charity owns an important resource at the University of Huddersfield and mentions that only 13% of composers listed are women. It has probably done well to get it up to that figure and it would be slightly higher if it had remembered Geraldine Mucha among others. It isn't exactly overflowing with scores from the likes of Trimble, Hopekirk and Spain-Dunk either. But if it ever seeks to increase that figure to 50% by the end of this century then it will need to build in some hefty new biases into the systems. Those are unlikely to be more usefully productive than encouraging an upturn back towards some parity if two years around commentary about Brexit and Trump represent any trend which I doubt.

As for the historical standards, I believe that music by women and black and mixed race composers was often on a par and even of a higher standard than music by many around at their time. It depends, though, on an individual's priorities as to whether that is the most significant point, be it true or false. From my perspective, I see women in the 21st Century as often being perceived by others and themselves with a capital W and black and mixed race people being perceived with a capital BAME. But when it comes to the 20th Century and classical music especially, I feel the people who were in such categories are better considered alongside the working class in the big O umbrella term the Oppressed.

Even where the compositions may lack some merit, they should be afforded the equivalent of a golfing handicap in any comparative analysis. That is because the main point is it is remarkable just what they achieved in the circumstances. It wasn't a matter of nuance then but rather that they often moved heaven and earth. The ease at which many did so conceals what went into it. And actually it is precisely the knowledge about that truth which for some of us can often make their music more attractive and even substantial.

There is an additional point which is about internationalism. The long history of classical music doesn't look quite the same from the perspective of, say, Brazil and Argentina. I strongly support initiatives like Black History Month and International Women’s Day just as I do databases of the kind being held at Huddersfield which focus exclusively on Britain. But it is very helpful, I think, to emphasise that the western perspective has always somewhat skewed the terms of reference. Some of that context is carried forward because of habit. While it can be addressed, it seems to me that when compared with other areas - football would be one example - classical music in the 21st Century is still lagging behind.

[ahinton]

There's no necessity to attack other members.

Indeed; nor have I done so or set out to do so.

Fundamental issues here seem to be whether there are material differences in the numbers of males and females entertaining the wish to become composers and whether the proportions might have changed over the years (and, if so, why); there's then the question of whether and to what extent any vestige of the kind of disparaging discouragement that was once widely meted out to aspiring female composers pertains today (and, again, if so, why).

There is the question as to whether educational opportunities to study composition are greater for males than for females (and whether this differs from one country to another); it doesn't seem immediately obvious that this the case.

As far as innate ability is concerned, I am not aware of any credible neuroscientific research which purports to demonstrate that females are any less capable than males of developing as composers, so it seems reasonable to question whether there's any noticeable difference in motivation (and, if so, why that should be).

Whilst there is a parlous past history of obstructive attitudes on the part of males towards female composers, one would have thought that such attitudes have been consigned to just that - history; if that isn't the case, one has to ask why and, if it isn't, one has to ask why there still seem to be far fewer female than male composers. It might also be worth considering whether it's more of a case of female composers having a harder time of securing performances / broadcasts / recordings than that there are simply fewer of them than their male counterparts; if the former is indeed the case, one has to wonder why.

Given that, as I've mentioned before, it is impossible to tell whether a piece of music is by a female or male composer just by listening to it, there would seem to be no just or credible reason for this gender imbalance.

[Richard Barrett]

"From GCSE onwards, the gap between male and female applications widened – from 50% at GCSE level, to the 35% female applicants to our summer school, to the 25% female applicants to Sound and Music’s various professional artist development programmes". Does that represent "every single stage of development" or is it just a comment from "Sound and Music", a modern idea of charity combining four organisations, about women not being as inclined to proceed in their development in the direction of the charity concerned?

That's a good point - many have indeed said that Sound and Music is not representative of the entire community of creative musicians in the UK. I don't know whether it does or not, being so far out of that particular loop. But the issue here is not so much the representation of women composers of the past as the encouragement (or not) for women to consider devoting themselves to musical creativity in the present and future. I agree that musical composition is some distance behind the visual arts in this regard and a long way behind literature.

[ahinton]

the issue here is not so much the representation of women composers of the past as the encouragement (or not) for women to consider devoting themselves to musical creativity in the present and future. I agree that musical composition is some distance behind the visual arts in this regard and a long way behind literature.

Indeed it is, but why? - and, for that matter, why is it that women in literature in particular appear to have far fewer obstacles to their creative development than might be the case with those in musical composition?

[french frank]

Indeed it is, but why? - and, for that matter, why is it that women in literature in particular appear to have far fewer obstacles to their creative development than might be the case with those in musical composition?

Though it may not always have appeared so to George Eliot, Ellis, Acton and Currer Bell, Georges Sand …

[teamsaint]

there is some interesting recent discussion around gender balance in the Scottish folk scene online.

https://thesession.org/discussions/40232

http://katemolleson.com/on-scottishness-folk-music-and-gender-balance/

I checked a couple of folk festival lineups for 2017 and there is a considerable gender imbalance, which one might consider a bit surprising in a genre where there are plenty of high profile female acts.

[ahinton]

Though it may not always have appeared so to George Eliot, Ellis, Acton and Currer Bell, Georges Sand …

Well, there have always been exceptions, of course, but I was referring to the current situation as mentioned by Richard (the last sentence of whose #35 relates to the present) rather than the days of those whom you mention here (and I realise that I ought to have made that rather clearer).

[P. G. Tipps]

What actual evidence is there in today's society that obstacles are put in the way of women when it comes to music composition?

The huge assumption seems to be that because there are fewer female than male composers there must be 'obstacles' involved. Of course there might be but, without solid evidence, it is surely quite impossible to say so with any certainty?.

There is a sad dearth of quality Scottish footballers around so does that automatically indicate a bias against Scottish footballers?

This is meant to be a serious question posed in good faith and, I trust, in the spirit of Richard Barrett's plea for sensible forum discourse on the matter.

I do realise that on International Women's Day this question might be somewhat awkwardly timed but that does not make it in any way invalid?

[Richard Barrett]

Though it may not always have appeared so to George Eliot, Ellis, Acton and Currer Bell, Georges Sand …

Yes but we are talking about the 21st century. Thinking about it earlier I wondered whether the difference in the situation of music is that there's a certain divide between composers and interpreters and, while women are "allowed in" far enough to be the latter, it was possible for women to excluded for longer from "men's work" like composing and conducting. I'm not sure how this holds up though.

[Richard Barrett]

I checked a couple of folk festival lineups for 2017 and there is a considerable gender imbalance, which one might consider a bit surprising in a genre where there are plenty of high profile female acts.

As there also is in jazz and improvised music, rather surprisingly in the latter case since it's so explicitly a music that does away with hierarchies.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

https://johnsonsrambler.wordpress.com/2017/03/08/radio-rambler-international-womens-day-2017/

[ahinton]

What actual evidence is there in today's society that obstacles are put in the way of women when it comes to music composition?

The huge assumption seems to be that because there are fewer female than male composers there must be 'obstacles' involved. Of course there might be but, without solid evidence, it is surely quite impossible to say so with any certainty?

It isn't an "assumption" but a possibility to be investigated in the light of the obvious fact that a large majority of music performed/recorded/broadcast is by male composers, for which there must surely be "reasons", however unreasonable they may be.

[ahinton]

Yes but we are talking about the 21st century. Thinking about it earlier I wondered whether the difference in the situation of music is that there's a certain divide between composers and interpreters and, while women are "allowed in" far enough to be the latter, it was possible for women to excluded for longer from "men's work" like composing and conducting. I'm not sure how this holds up though.

Well, precious few women conductors and even players of certain instruments (brass, bassoon) were part of the music performing community until relatively recently but it might be argued that, even in those fields, matters have become better for women than in the field of composition (and in so saying I was thinking of the discrepancy that you note about women in the visual arts and especially literature); it does seem as though fewer doors open easily to women in the world of musical composition than in most other creative/recreative endeavours in music.