John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[Richard Barrett]

My point is that the results are irrelevant. Even if it were true that the conductor bullies achieved better results (and there cannot be any objective judgement about that) the behaviour would not be justifiable.

You're right of course. But I don't think anyone here is claiming that this behaviour in itself produces better results, no matter how subjective a matter it is.

Moving back towards the topic, though, I guess some people might think that the discipline and precision of JEG's performances is the result of the person in change being an authoritarian. One might think the same thing about the Arditti String Quartet, with which I have plenty of first-hand experience. But for everyone who achieves discipline and precision using those methods, there's someone who achieves it without them. It's just too facile to associate a particular style of performance with a particular kind of social behaviour.

[ahinton]

You're right of course. But I don't think anyone here is claiming that this behaviour in itself produces better results, no matter how subjective a matter it is.

Moving back towards the topic, though, I guess some people might think that the discipline and precision of JEG's performances is the result of the person in change being an authoritarian. One might think the same thing about the Arditti String Quartet, with which I have plenty of first-hand experience. But for everyone who achieves discipline and precision using those methods, there's someone who achieves it without them. It's just too facile to associate a particular style of performance with a particular kind of social behaviour.

"Facile"? Absurd, I'd say!

[Stanfordian]

[Re: St Matthew Passion BAL, 7.4.12]

I must say I find Gardiner's recording far too hard-driven, theatrical rather than spiritual and hence missing the point albeit - true - extraordinary and a technical tour-de-force. Same goes for his other large-scale Bach. I tried them all when they came out, but returned them all - they left me cold and rather irritated.

These days my experience has led me to avoid recordings by JEG. I last saw him conduct in 2014 in Mendelssohn and Schumann with LSO at Berlin and was singularly unimpressed with a really uninspiring performance of such wonderful music. In my recordings of Bach cantatas as a rule I much prefer Herreweghe, Suzuki on period instruments and for older recordings Richter.

[Richard Barrett]

These days my experience has led me to avoid recordings by JEG. I last saw him conduct in 2014 in Mendelssohn and Schumann with LSO at Berlin and was singularly unimpressed. In my Bach cantatas as a rule I much prefer Herreweghe, Suzuki and Richter.

I remember being in a CD shop (remember those?) browsing around and wondering what the music was that was being played. It sounded a bit like Bach but not the Bach that I knew. It turned out to be one of JEG's Archiv CDs of Bach cantatas. I like the live ones from 2000, most of them anyway, there are a couple of dodgy performances there which you'd expect, these people are only human after all. The best ones are as eloquent a testimony to the advantages of live recording as I can imagine. These days, though, I prefer to hear them with much smaller vocal ensembles than in the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt and Koopman sets that I got to know most of them through. But I don't think anyone has yet (I mean since Bach's time!) really solved the problem of how to do that convincingly.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But I don't think anyone has yet (I mean since Bach's time!) really solved the problem of how to do that convincingly.

I'm not sure that anyone has seriously tried to do a Cantata sequence using "O"VpP and boys and young men singers. If ever my EuroMillions come up, that would be something I would sponsor. (I hope no one's waiting - I never buy the tickets.)

[Richard Barrett]

I'm not sure that anyone has seriously tried to do a Cantata sequence using "O"VpP and boys and young men singers.

I wasn't talking about that in particular, but of the OVPP recordings I've heard (Rifkin, Kuijken, Montréal Baroque, Pierlot) I don't yet hear anything completely convincing using mixed voices, with regard for example to balance between voices and between voices and instruments - enough to convince me that this is the way to go (leaving aside all the evidence that this is the way it did go in the 1700s) but it's early days yet.

Topicwise: as I mentioned before, JEG himself with uncharacteristic coyness decides in his book not to engage at all with this issue.

[MrGongGong]

Moving back towards the topic, though, I guess some people might think that the discipline and precision of JEG's performances is the result of the person in change being an authoritarian. One might think the same thing about the Arditti String Quartet, with which I have plenty of first-hand experience. But for everyone who achieves discipline and precision using those methods, there's someone who achieves it without them. It's just too facile to associate a particular style of performance with a particular kind of social behaviour.

Very well put

It does strike me as somewhat sad that some folks do seem to think that it is necessary to behave badly to create great art.
I'd take the Arditti's over any self important and shouty conductor any day

[visualnickmos]

Very well put

It does strike me as somewhat sad that some folks do seem to think that it is necessary to behave badly to create great art. I'd take the Arditti's over any self important and shouty conductor any day

Quite.

[jayne lee wilson]

Very well put

It does strike me as somewhat sad that some folks do seem to think that it is necessary to behave badly to create great art.
I'd take the Arditti's over any self important and shouty conductor any day

Which folks? Which Art?
How do these folks arrive at the idea that bad behaviour is creatively necessary?
Do they employ it wilfully or cynically in the belief that it will achieve a specific result?

[MrGongGong]

Which folks? Which Art?
How do these folks arrive at the idea that bad behaviour is creatively necessary?
Do they employ it wilfully or cynically in the belief that it will achieve a specific result?

This says something maybe ?

http://www.russellsteinberg.com/blog/2014/11/27/are-musical-geniuses-intrinsically-bullies

[french frank]

This says something maybe ?

But this is an article based on the experience of someone involved with music. Isn't bullying more to do with people being aware of the power they have over people, rather than just in music? Some people are bullies for various reasons, others aren't.

or "Perhaps for Dylan or Kirchner, asserting power and authority by humiliating people around them was a coping mechanism for these fears—not an intrinsic part of their genius."

[jayne lee wilson]

This says something maybe ?

http://www.russellsteinberg.com/blog...ically-bullies

Interesting reading (and usefully wider references...!), thanks....
In a similar vein re. Toscanini -

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PYVoi8JK0WMC&pg=PA447&lpg=PA447&dq=was+toscanini+a+bully&source=bl&ots=V3zjnjoVHH&sig=vem42RBgrVI0lSE8mxmQBbcLauA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFq9jF17HRAhWCthoKHY2VDIsQ6AEILTAD#v=onepage&q=was%20toscanini%20a%20bully&f=false

[Kingfisher]

I've heard musicians say similar things about what a horrible (but inspired) man he is, a bully, arrogant and liable to explode for no apparent reason.

There are plenty of wonderful conductors who aren't like this and it strikes me as sad that people allow him to get away with being such a tyrant.

Quite so - there are many much better conductors who inspire great performances by getting performers on their side, and would never physically assault them. JEG’s behaviour has been unacceptable for years - a despicable abuse of power.

[edashtav]

Oh dear! It’s difficult when ones’s heroes are revealed to have feet of clay, or worse. I was delighted to attend the Q.E. Hall 100th Birthday Concert for Balfour Gardiner in December ,1977 when JEG introduced me to music about which I’d read much but heard little. I’ve followed JEG’s subsequent career with enthusiasm.
The story coming out of Berlioz’s birthplace is deeply disturbing, particularly as the apparent trigger for his unforgivable behaviour was trivial. If what we hear is true, I hope he gets effective medical help.

[Dave2002]

Very unfortunate. I won't post the link, but if anyone wants to check this out a search will locate an article from the Mail. Indeed it does seem that the trigger was very minor, forgivable, and other conductors would have found other ways of dealing with the situation.