John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[jayne lee wilson]

So ends justify means?

I don't think so.

But of course we don't know most of what really goes on........( good as well as bad)

Well, see the quotes in #53 above, but better still listen to the actual recordings and see what you think, see if they bear out the musicians' feelings about them....

"Do ends justify means?" is surely a morally complex, contextually-dependent problem. But conductors of different character or temperament produce different results of course. If JEG was "nicer" the end product would be different.

I recall a story of Mark Wigglesworth rehearsing with the Philadelphia Orchestra where he had encouraged the principal cellist (IIRC, I can't find this now) to do what he, the cellist, wanted with a given solo/orchestral passage. After some difficulties, the cellist said "democracy doesn't work..."

[teamsaint]

Well, see the quotes in #53 above, but better still listen to the actual recordings and see what you think, see if they bear out the musicians' feelings about them....

"Do ends justify means?" is surely a morally complex, contextually-dependent problem. But conductors of different character or temperament produce different results of course. If JEG was "nicer" the end product would be different.

I recall a story of Mark Wigglesworth rehearsing with the Philadelphia Orchestra where he had encouraged the principal cellist (IIRC, I can't find this now) to do what he, the cellist, wanted with a given solo/orchestral passage. After some difficulties, the cellist said "democracy doesn't work..."

It was a general point about behaviour really. Of course it is a very complicated area, but I would start from a position where the baseline norm is reasonable, thoughtful , respectful leadership. If people have to resort to management techniques that consistently fall well below this aspiration, then that is, for me, a real problem.
Accurately determining such behaviour to have occurred is problematic, and benefit of doubt etc.....

And of course, people in high profile positions and industries do make enemies, or engender jealousies.

How far any of this applies to JEG, is far from clear, although he clearly has rubbed some people up the wrong way, and that may well have been to the good in some cases( EG the Dean of Salisbury).

As it goes, I have sung in a choir on a major recording directed by JEG, albeit a long time ago, so have experienced his musical direction at close quarters, and in some depth.
He was inspirational, and highly professional, as you might expect. It is also easy to understand how his rigorous approach might not be to everybody's taste.

[pastoralguy]

It's worth pointing out that there are orchestral players who could also be described as arrogant and unhelpful. I've seen it happen and it's very unpleasant to witness.

[doversoul1]

Well, see the quotes in #53 above, but better still listen to the actual recordings and see what you think, see if they bear out the musicians' feelings about them....

"Do ends justify means?" is surely a morally complex, contextually-dependent problem. But conductors of different character or temperament produce different results of course. If JEG was "nicer" the end product would be different.

You seem to have a terribly romantic view about professional musicians. You may be able to detect what’s going on behind the scene in armature choirs (e.g. 'we don't like him') but I very much doubt that’s the case with professional orchestras and choirs.

I recall a story of Mark Wigglesworth rehearsing with the Philadelphia Orchestra where he had encouraged the principal cellist (IIRC, I can't find this now) to do what he, the cellist, wanted with a given solo/orchestral passage. After some difficulties, the cellist said "democracy doesn't work..."

This sounds more like a simple misjudgement on the conductor’s part and nothing to do with his character as a person.

So you are saying ‘never mind morally complex, contextually-dependent or whatever in this case. Just listen to JEG’s recordings and all will be well’…. Is that it?

[Alison]

One of those threads where I find myself agreeing with every post

[MrGongGong]

OK - why did they then?
Something to do with what they were creating? If they hadn't "let him get away with being such a tyrant" would the musical results have been...different/as good/worse...?...

The amount of control even the most long serving and experienced orchestral musicians have over the work they do is often miniscule. Many of them are terrified of loosing work and there is little or no job security so not much choice.
But from what I have been told I would think that the "wonderful" JEG is a hideous arrogant bully who is exceptionally gifted at music. Maybe he should just go back to his farm and concentrate on ordering the sheep around rather than inflict more misery on musicians ?
There are plenty of others to take his place

[jayne lee wilson]

You seem to have a terribly romantic view about professional musicians. You may be able to detect what’s going on behind the scene in armature choirs (e.g. 'we don't like him') but I very much doubt that’s the case with professional orchestras and choirs.


This sounds more like a simple misjudgement on the conductor’s part and nothing to do with his character as a person.

So you are saying ‘never mind morally complex, contextually-dependent or whatever in this case. Just listen to JEG’s recordings and all will be well’…. Is that it?

No of course not, it is more nuanced than that, as my previous posts on this thread try to suggest. You may respond differently, but: having immersed yourself in them, you have to ask yourself if, in respect of their reported or hearsaid behavioural unpleasantness, you'd be willing to do without the best of Toscanini, or Reiner, or JEG himself. Maybe you would.
But if you wish to produce great art, "being nice" or a "respectable, well-mannered, well-behaved person" may not be the best way to achieve it.
Picasso, Dali? Proust, de Beauvoir, Genet, Houellebecq? Céline?

You may hate your boss, or love your oppressor.
Have you never felt upset or cross with someone who criticised you, only to realise that they did, in fact, push you into thinking harder, doing better work?

[alycidon]

I have always identified with JEG - for no better reason than the fact that I was born on 11th April 1943, while JEG was born on the 17th. Totally illogical, I know, but I have always felt an affinity with him and generally quite like his performances, especially his recent Beethoven 5th, which he took at breakneck speed.

Somebody has called him a toff so that is where the similarity ends. I might be a lot of things, but a toff I most certainly ain't!

[MrGongGong]

No of course not, it is more nuanced than that, as my previous posts on this thread try to suggest. You may respond differently, but: having immersed yourself in them, you have to ask yourself if, in respect of their reported or hearsaid behavioural unpleasantness, you'd be willing to do without the best of Toscanini, or Reiner, or JEG himself. Maybe you would.
But if you wish to produce great art, "being nice" or a "respectable, well-mannered, well-behaved person" may not be the best way to achieve it.
Picasso, Dali? Proust, de Beauvoir, Genet, Houellebecq? Céline?

You may hate your boss, or love your oppressor.
Have you never felt upset or cross with someone who criticised you, only to realise that they did, in fact, push you into thinking harder, doing better work?

In some ways I "get" what you are saying
BUT I don't think that anyone is so "special" to be allowed to get away with bullying and some of the kinds of things I have heard folks tell me about him.
There really are plenty of equally great (or as yet undiscovered) directors out there.

Having spent many years working in music i'm not convinced by the myth of the tortured genius who has to create disturbance for "great" art to happen.

I DON'T think the two are comparable in their acts in the world
BUT it does remind me somewhat of mr King who many folks seem to be perfectly happy to "forgive" as somehow his wonderful music makes it all ok ....... it doesn't IMV

[teamsaint]

In some ways I "get" what you are saying
BUT I don't think that anyone is so "special" to be allowed to get away with bullying and some of the kinds of things I have heard folks tell me about him.
There really are plenty of equally great (or as yet undiscovered) directors out there.

Having spent many years working in music i'm not convinced by the myth of the tortured genius who has to create disturbance for "great" art to happen.

I DON'T think the two are comparable in their acts in the world
BUT it does remind me somewhat of mr King who many folks seem to be perfectly happy to "forgive" as somehow his wonderful music makes it all ok ....... it doesn't IMV

.

Concerning conductors specifically, the point is that they should have a duty of care towards those who work for and with them, something which might not apply to the composer whose personality issues ( if they have them !) might "only" affect those personally close to them.



Re Mr King, what bothers me as much as "forgiveness" is the double standard that seems to apply to him, compared to others who have committed similar offences. Jonathan Rees Williams, same industry, similar offences ,has had no forgiveness from the industry at all, as far as I can see.

And I agree with you, there is a lot of talent out there, waiting for its chance.

[Once Was 4]

.

Concerning conductors specifically, the point is that they should have a duty of care towards those who work for and with them, something which might not apply to the composer whose personality issues ( if they have them !) might "only" affect those personally close to them.



Re Mr King, what bothers me as much as "forgiveness" is the double standard that seems to apply to him, compared to others who have committed similar offences. Jonathan Rees Williams, same industry, similar offences ,has had no forgiveness from the industry at all, as far as I can see.

And I agree with you, there is a lot of talent out there, waiting for its chance.

Hmmm! Reminds me of a rehearsal many years ago with Sir Charles Groves. There was some lack of attention going on which was leading to rather slack playing. He put down his stick and said thoughtfully "this kind of thing turns some conductors into bores - I hate bores!" 'Nuff said!

[Richard Barrett]

Having spent many years working in music i'm not convinced by the myth of the tortured genius who has to create disturbance for "great" art to happen.

That isn't really the issue though. I don't think anyone is saying he has to be the authoritarian you hear about in order to get the musical results he does. We can listen to the music he makes without condoning his attitudes and behaviour, whether it's JEG or Stockhausen (who was at least as overbearing in his relations with performers). And the same goes for Robert King (and I don't see anyone "forgiving" him). And for all those other musicians who don't measure up to some liberal standard or other. And for all those other musicians whose private lives or characters are unknown. As soon as you make the music it ceases to be "yours".

[pastoralguy]

I recall a story I heard from an aged violinist who had had a distinguished career in Scotland. For years, this chap sat next to a colleague who was for ever moaning and complaining about his job. The conductor wasn't good, the pay was terrible, he was fed up playing Beethoven's Fifth and so it went on and on. The chap eventually said to the colleague 'If you're that unhappy, get a job doing something else'.

Lo and behold, the colleague came into work a few weeks later and said he'd taken the chap's advice and he was starting a new job in Insurance in a new ultramodern office that had recently opened. He was to go to London for a month's training before starting the new job. Four months later, the chap and colleague were sitting together again in the orchestra and the colleague never ONCE complained about his job in he orchestra again.

[MrGongGong]

That isn't really the issue though. I don't think anyone is saying he has to be the authoritarian you hear about in order to get the musical results he does.

I think some people do think this though

[jayne lee wilson]

Sometimes I'm grateful for insomnia.

Staggering down at dawn for painkillers I found a phrase from Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony in my head. I was stunned to realise I'd never thought of mentioning JEG's LSO Live recording (released 2016, c/w No.1) on this thread before, as I'd named it my album of the year for 2016. So - I played it.

The 4th with the LSO is has an unusually understated 1st movement, restrained until the climax on the 3rd theme at the end of the development; you can scarcely miss the extraordinary subtleties of pace, precision of rhythm and phrase, and minute attention to dynamic gradients. The middle movements are cleanly articulated, delicate and detailed rather than affectionate: even if he admits its existence, Gardiner doesn't do rubato (the way I don't do mornings).

Peak energy in this reading is, more than usually, reserved for the saltarello finale, a fantastically precise and precisely fantastic reaping of the wild wind, a phenomenon that perhaps could only come from JEG's baton, with astonishingly subtle, detailed variation of dynamics, attack and pacing (but again feeling strictly controlled - right on the edge but never losing it - rather than overtly expressive) of a kind that must have taken some pretty intensive rehearsal.
The performance leaves a vivid impression of sharp articulation and extreme sonic contrasts; evocation and atmosphere.... perhaps not so much.

The 1st is if anything even more astounding. I'd urge anyone interested to listen to these Mendelssohn Symphonies as another take on what matters, the musical end product.
I hope the LSO enjoyed it too, but when results are as remarkable as this, frankly I don't give a damn how he got them.

http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/mendelssohn-symphonies-1-4-london-symphony-orchestra-sir-john-eliot-gardiner/0822231176923?qref=dac_6