John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[David-G]

I am NOT denigrating what he has done at all - I own many of his recordings and value them. I vlaue the MonteverdiChoir etc.
BUT
in the eyes of seemingly a number of influential, opinion-making critics, he apparently can do no wrong, whatever composer / orchestra / work he espouses.

Sorry, I just do not buy that.

That, surely, is a problem with them - not a problem with him.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That, surely, is a problem with them - not a problem with him.

But isn't that what DracoM said in his #34?

[jayne lee wilson]

Musicians I know describe him as a bully and avoid playing for him as a consequence.

How often we read some comment like this about a conductor... all the way back to Reiner, Toscanini...

In one of the few conversations I ever had with an orchestral musician (from the RLPO), I mentioned how much I'd enjoyed Mark Wigglesworth's BBCSO relays. He commented on how unpopular he was with "some of the players". It hasn't harmed his career much has it? His many excellent recordings speak for themselves. So isn't it finally down to the musical results? What else is left from a career of performance and recording? Well, for listeners, at least!
I would refer you back to my #18, for suggestions of recent recordings to engage with, if you can. The ORR's playing on those live issues (not to mention comments from the players in the notes) suggest anything but reluctance under domination - more a devotional, impassioned commitment.

I rarely enjoyed his Proms performances during the 1990s. It took me a while to understand what he was doing, and I'll probably not return to those earlier cycles with much pleasure (though one's response to revisiting such things is never that predictable, is it? A recent Proms Missa Solemnis was marvellous, he gave us a terrific Berlioz' Roméo et Juliette last year, and I suspect I'd enjoy those Mozart Concertos with Bilson more, now that my own tastes are very much HIPPs-oriented, thanks to Brautigam & Willens, Cristofori, Schoonderwoerd etc. Perhaps the Brahms Symphonies too, after Mackerras or Manze).

So I certainly regard John Eliot Gardiner as a great, at times inspirational, conductor. I recall hearing a live VPO Haydn 96 on R3 some years ago and, to my surprise, delighting in it. I wonder if there's a treasure trove of such things out there? How that might change the view.... A shame that the Wiener Philharmoniker seem so parsimonious about their live releases. (Remember that Haydn Box with Harnoncourt, Welser-Möst, Boulez? I'd love to hear something like that, with JEG).

[Richard Barrett]

How often we read some comment like this about a conductor... In one of the few conversations I ever had with an orchestral musician (from the RLPO), he commented on how unpopular Mark Wigglesworth was with "some of the players".

There are all kinds of reasons why "some of the players" might complain about one conductor or another, and as you imply few of them have much to do with what listeners will hear! When orchestras are electing a new chief conductor (those that do such enlightened things!) there will often be diametrical differences of opinion as to who the most suitable person might be. JEG is quite the toff, of course, which some would find offputting (and actually, on a personal level, I can't myself help but view the upper classes with a certain suspicion!) but, over and above the fact that having a privileged background is a massive advantage for aspiring conductors (along with most other occupations in the "classical music world"), it doesn't have a lot to do with his qualities as a musician.

[verismissimo]

How often we read some comment like this about a conductor... all the way back to Reiner, Toscanini...

And for me it's evident in the recordings of all three.

[rauschwerk]

I have heard rumours that some of the Monteverdi Choir don't much care for JEG as a person. But of course they do sing for him, partly because it gets them lots of work, and also because those gigs on one's CV could hardly look more impressive.

[Conchis]

Is JEG a concert draw?

I attended a Prom he did in 1999 (Schumann's Scenes From Goethe's Faust) and the attendance was shocking. A virtually empty arena.

The performance was good, as far as I can remember. But all I can really recall is my astonishment that a 'name' conductor couldn't draw a crowd.

[jayne lee wilson]

And for me it's evident in the recordings of all three.

In Reiner's Valses Nobles or his Iberia? The Heldenleben or Don Quixote? The Bartok Concerto for Orchestra? These classic recordings evince a vital give-and-take, a sensuousness and responsiveness in the playing which doesn't sound remotely overdriven or brutalised to my ears, however such results were arrived at.

In the notes to the JEG live Beethoven 2/8, the ORR principal cellist, Robin Michael, comments:
"To be surrounded by such wonderful individual and collective playing by one's colleagues is a real privilege. This was yet another special and memorable project and I'm glad that this recording provides more than just the memory of it.."

Of the Beethoven 5th and 7th, ORR principal oboist Michael Niesmann says: "The members of the ORR always give their all - John Eliot Gardiner demands, inspires and gives no less - but especially during the Carnegie Hall concert we felt as if we were playing for our lives. In this wonderful concert hall the energy of Beethoven's music was all-encompassing, addictive, one of the most beautiful and intense experiences possible. I am so glad we now have a recording of this concert as a historical document."

(...And listening to them is fairly addictive, all-encompassing and memorable in itself....)

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Is JEG a concert draw?

I attended a Prom he did in 1999 (Schumann's Scenes From Goethe's Faust) and the attendance was shocking. A virtually empty arena.

The performance was good, as far as I can remember. But all I can really recall is my astonishment that a 'name' conductor couldn't draw a crowd.

To be fair, that piece is box-office suicide.

[Conchis]

To be fair, that piece is box-office suicide.

True: a neither-fish-nor-fowl monstrosity that is neither opera nor oratorio nor anything else.

BUT - I'd imagine if Simon Rattle had been conducting, there would have been a better house?

When you think about it, there are very few 'house full' names in orchestral music.

[HighlandDougie]

The lighter side of JEG (if that is possible) may be experienced in this most enjoyable Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra concert from last Friday - Chabrier and Debussy. Recorded in the wonderful acoustic of the Philharmonie am Gasteig.

https://www.br-klassik.de/programm/radio/ausstrahlung-952538.html

[MrGongGong]

Musicians I know describe him as a bully and avoid playing for him as a consequence.

I've heard musicians say similar things about what a horrible (but inspired) man he is, a bully, arrogant and liable to explode for no apparent reason.

There are plenty of wonderful conductors who aren't like this and it strikes me as sad that people allow him to get away with being such a tyrant.

[Warlock]

He appears to be like a lot of the farmers I worked for in my younger days. We however were not afraid of the sack so answered back!

[jayne lee wilson]

I've heard musicians say similar things about what a horrible (but inspired) man he is, a bully, arrogant and liable to explode for no apparent reason.

There are plenty of wonderful conductors who aren't like this and it strikes me as sad that people allow him to get away with being such a tyrant.

OK - why did they then?
Something to do with what they were creating? If they hadn't "let him get away with being such a tyrant" would the musical results have been...different/as good/worse...?...

[teamsaint]

So ends justify means?

I don't think so.

But of course we don't know most of what really goes on........( good as well as bad)