John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[Maclintick]

I'm grateful to Alice for that delightful and concisely-worded vignette. Was she singing Dido, Cassandra or Anna?

I admired Gardiner as an interpeter of 16th and 17th century choral music but I felt he had nothing special to offer in the music of later centuries. He really ought to retire discreetly now.

I don't enjoy Gardiner's hard-driven Bach. On Christmas Day we put on Part One of his Archiv recording of the Christmas Oratorio, & were appalled at the wham-bang crashery of the opening chorus. Dreadfully out-of-tune timps & the first beat of every bar assaulted by the chorus, putting me in mind of one of my favourite dynamic indications "frappez avec une baguette ou un tampon" -- appropriate to be hit over the head in Berlioz Requiem, perhaps, but not 'ere. Some lovely playing and singing later on, though, from a fine groups of soloists, including the peerless Tony Rolfe Johnson as The Evangelist.

[smittims]

Ah well, Sir Velo, I respect your opinion, but I must deny 'undeniably' sorry! I found his Schumann coarse and shallow compared with others. .

[MickyD]

For me, JEG was at his best in baroque French repertoire. His 'Les Boréades' has never been bettered in my opinion, likewise Leclair's "Scylla et Glaucus". And I remain forever grateful to him for reviving the divine Campra Requiem which remains the reference recording for me.

[Master Jacques]

Above all, however, it is perhaps in the problematic Schumann symphonies where his recordings with the ORR remain the gold standard.

After fifty years of happy listening, I've still to discover why mainstream critical opinion finds Schumann's symphonies "problematic", in form, content or orchestration. When academics go to such great lengths to defend the (audibly indefensible) original orchestrations of Mussorgsky, for example, I am baffled by their intolerance of Schumann's perfectly viable instrumentation.

[oddoneout]

In later years I have found performances to be too mannered and micro-managed for my liking - JEG becoming more important than JSB.

[oliver sudden]

After fifty years of happy listening, I've still to discover why mainstream critical opinion finds Schumann's symphonies "problematic", in form, content or orchestration. When academics go to such great lengths to defend the (audibly indefensible) original orchestrations of Mussorgsky, for example, I am baffled by their intolerance of Schumann's perfectly viable instrumentation.

I on the other hand have no problem with Mussorgsky’s originals but do find that Schumann’s orchestra (although emphatically not his content or form) needs careful handling with today’s over-upholstered string sections! So, horses for courses.

I am indeed despite everything a fan of the JEG Schumanns, and of some of the Berlioz (R&J in particular. I haven’t managed to get to the Trojans DVD.) Although not the JEG Brahmses… except for the ‘fillers’! There’s also much to treasure in the early Schütz recordings and the Buxtehude Membra Jesu Nostri, although a few decades down the track there’s also much that sounds pretty quaint. And the earlyish Handel. L’Allegro… for example, and the Philips Solomon. The Beethoven symphonies I loved at a first listen but they palled very quickly.

Bach… it depends. For me there are some great early things including quite a lot of the first St John. But the Archiv St Matthew is already a definite curate’s egg and in the cantata pilgrimage there is too much for me where the choir is just too squally.

In terms of the specific thread topic, and the recent “nice guys don’t win ball games” apologia… nope. Far cough, I’m not having that. I don’t know what kind of music-making justifies assaulting your colleagues but as far as I’m concerned whatever it might look like he hasn’t been coming up with anything like it for a good couple of decades.

[Master Jacques]

I on the other hand have no problem with Mussorgsky’s originals but do find that Schumann’s orchestra (although emphatically not his content or form) needs careful handling with today’s over-upholstered string sections! So, horses for courses.

If I could (in parenthesis) address the Mussorgsky aspect, the "problem" there is that a close and fair reading of contemporary sources (especially from his friend and sometime room-mate Rimsky) makes it clear that MM himself was perfectly well aware that his lack of proficiency in orchestration made it impossible for him to capture the sound he had in his head. Which is why he needed Rimsky et al. to help him out. Returning to Mussorgsky's "originals" is therefore akin to taking an unrefined student essay as your definitive text.