John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[teamsaint]

Why is forgiveness "revolting"? Robert King's done his time, so isn't it also time for charity to replace shaming? The people whose opinions actually matter - his fellow artists - believe so, at any rate. And their decision should be respected.

They are hard-working, underpaid musicians. They are not the "establishment", which has not "forgiven" the man. You won't find him doing much work for the BBC, for starters, which ought to satisfy even the most sanctimonious critics.

Of the star soloists , and they of course can afford to be a bit choosier, some seem to have decided not to work with King. , EG Carolyn Sampson. Others decided differently.

Other, less well paid musicians are in a more difficult place, and of course they must make their own judgements, hopefully principled ones. But King's rehabilitation is simply far beyond what similar offenders have been " allowed". If somebody told me that this was because he has friends in high places, I would have to say that was likely the case.

[Ein Heldenleben]

King may not be invited to the Proms any more, but he continues to perform with star soloists, receive gushing reviews, is routinely nominated for Gramophone Awards, and is the Executive Producer of a record label that has picked up where Hyperion left off, adding further sales to the 1.5M records his ensemble has shifted. It's hardly sanctimonious to look askance at his frictionless return to the heart of the classical music industry after serving whatever fraction he completed of his relatively short sentence, with no expression of remorse. For the five known survivors of his abuse, the damage may be permanent, a sentence with no remission. After reading this account by one survivor (who 'the conductor' allegedly started to groom at the age of eleven), I think it would take a particularly strong stomach, or a peculiar lack of empathy, to be comfortable with how readily he has been welcomed back to the fold. According to this account, the abuser was naively forgiven after several assauls, with promises that they would end. Instead, the abuse resumed and escalated.

Thanks for posting . The survivor’s account is harrowing indeed. Over my career I supervised many TV investigations into child sex abuse frequently involving middle aged men who’d been abused as children. It always struck me just how damaged they’d been by it, how ashamed they were and how they often didn’t want their own family to know . The psychological damage child sex abusers do is very significant and often with dozens of victims. I note King seems never to have shown any remorse and find It distinctly odd that people are prepared to work with him. One other thing I noted is how often friends of the abuser make excuses “they enticed him , they’re dodgy kids , etc . I even once heard some victims described as “ low life “ it amazes me people still work with King. His offences are way way worse than Huw Edwards and I can’t see the latter ever being allowed in the BBC again.
On a personal note - Suffice it to say I would advise against letting your children take part in any unsupervised lone activity with an adult especially any involving overnight stays. Sadly not even professionals can always be trusted - not the police , doctors , teachers -so the best thing is denial of opportunity.

[LHC]

Of the star soloists , and they of course can afford to be a bit choosier, some seem to have decided not to work with King. , EG Carolyn Sampson. Others decided differently.

Other, less well paid musicians are in a more difficult place, and of course they must make their own judgements, hopefully principled ones. But King's rehabilitation is simply far beyond what similar offenders have been " allowed". If somebody told me that this was because he has friends in high places, I would have to say that was likely the case.

Carolyn Sampson appears on several of his recent recordings, so I think you are wrong to suggest she doesn't work with him. As far as I can see, all of the people that worked with the King's Consort before his conviction are still doing so.

[Master Jacques]

I think it would take a particularly strong stomach, or a peculiar lack of empathy, to be comfortable with how readily he has been welcomed back to the fold.

I don't have a strong stomach, and have been in the empathy business for most of my life. "Comfort" doesn't enter into my range of responses: I'm amazed that so many people find this sort of stuff so massively exciting, and appalled at the resultant - and wholly unwarranted - collapse of trust in society which it indicates. Who would dare to work with children nowadays? We're destroying civilised society by feeding paranoia.

[smittims]

Since #Metoo I would not allow myself in a room with any woman or anyone under the age of 16 without an independent witness present. It's not worth the risk.

[Master Jacques]

Since #Metoo I would not allow myself in a room with any woman or anyone under the age of 16 without an independent witness present. It's not worth the risk.

I don't allow anyone else in the same room, if I can help it, Smittims, not even my wife. You don't know who's a woman and who isn't these days, let alone their age or who might be a disgraced choral conductor disguised as an elderly female relative.

Seriously - and pardon my introducing a mere matter of fact - the King's Consort is advertising no upcoming performances on their website. The latest was in Logroño (Spain) on March 1st 2024. So it's clear that the British "establishment" (ironic laugh, given the 'othering' of art music by successive, populist governments) is doing diddly-squat for the band over here.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't have a strong stomach, and have been in the empathy business for most of my life. "Comfort" doesn't enter into my range of responses: I'm amazed that so many people find this sort of stuff so massively exciting, and appalled at the resultant - and wholly unwarranted - collapse of trust in society which it indicates. Who would dare to work with children nowadays? We're destroying civilised society by feeding paranoia.

Yes that’s what I used to think. Unfortunately child abuse - both physical and sexual - is much more common than we like to admit. The DBS system is not perfect but it’s better than nothing. One problem is that more or less overwhelmed by requests. The other - linked to that - is that organisations don’t use common sense and work out that 75 years old female Church flower arrangers are very unlikely to be abusers.
The tragedy , as you hint at , is that organisations like the Scouts find it difficult to recruit adults - so there’s a waiting list . Youngsters then lose out. But I don’t blame the Scouts for being over scrupulous : they have to be as overnights with responsible adults are part of scouting. I blame the abusers. You would not believe the effort the Scouts have put historically into preventing infiltration - at one stage having one of the largest cutting libraries of court cases involving sex offenders. Things are getting better - with the sex offenders register and the DBS system and heightened public awareness.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I don't allow anyone else in the same room, if I can help it, Smittims, not even my wife. You don't know who's a woman and who isn't these days, let alone their age or who might be a disgraced choral conductor disguised as an elderly female relative.

Seriously - and pardon my introducing a mere matter of fact - the King's Consort is advertising no upcoming performances on their website. The latest was in Logroño (Spain) on March 1st 2024. So it's clear that the British "establishment" (ironic laugh, given the 'othering' of art music by successive, populist governments) is doing diddly-squat for the band over here.

Yes I noticed that. Business isn’t exactly booming.

[vinteuil]

I've said this in another thread, but at least one English Cathedral will now not allow compositions by convicted child abusers on its music lists. I imagine that others will follow its lead, even though it means one popular recent hymn tune at least would disappear from the repertoire.

... christianity, the religion of forgiveness, seems to have its limits

(but is Gesualdo allowed?)

.

[oliver sudden]

I hate to be the spoilsport but we seem to have wandered a bit…

[Master Jacques]

... christianity, the religion of forgiveness, seems to have its limits

(but is Gesualdo allowed?)

.

But of course. Serial murderers are easily rehabilitated by our glorious "establishment". The idea of Christian Charity is discredited and dangerous nonsense.

[mopsus]

... christianity, the religion of forgiveness, seems to have its limits

(but is Gesualdo allowed?)

.

The reason given for removing compositions by convicted offenders is to avoid potential distress caused to victims of abuse.

I am a church safeguarding officer and I have to take account of safeguarding risks while not depriving past abusers of the ministry of the Church. It is a tricky path to follow, but there is a 'theology of safeguarding' which takes both of these aspects into account. I won't take this thread further off course by expanding on this here.

As for Gesualdo, it is thought that many of his church compositions were an act of penitence and remorse?

[teamsaint]

Carolyn Sampson appears on several of his recent recordings, so I think you are wrong to suggest she doesn't work with him. As far as I can see, all of the people that worked with the King's Consort before his conviction are still doing so.

Fair enough, I hadn't checked recently, so apologies.

[Retune]

I'm amazed that so many people find this sort of stuff so massively exciting, and appalled at the resultant - and wholly unwarranted - collapse of trust in society which it indicates. Who would dare to work with children nowadays? We're destroying civilised society by feeding paranoia.

It's not excitement, but horror and disgust about real incidents. While it is indeed depressing that strong safeguarding measures are now required, the fault is with the predators themselves. This type of abuse has always happened, but previously it was often hushed up or disregarded. In the survivor's account linked above, more than one adult who was made aware of the abuse did nothing. One told him that 'such incidents often cropped up in boys’ lives, and generally originated in the younger man’s admiration for the older', which is pure victim blaming.

As for Gesualdo, he won't be receiving any royalties from performing his work. Buying an album or a concert ticket featuring living (and in some cases apparently unrepentant) abusers is a different matter.

[Maclintick]

I don't find much to disagree with in Andrew Mellor's article here:

https://www.classical-music.uk/opinion/article/the-long-view-gardiner-s-farcical-comeback-shames-us-all