John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[MickyD]

Just out of interest, do forumites consider the waspish and rude comments of, say, Thomas Beecham make him fall into this category of bullying? And what about Toscanini? I don't know a lot about their behaviour but did it ever lead to any physical abuse on their part?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Twaddle. I guess he doesn't rate Haitink and Rattle to name just two great conductors? - charismatic and with impeccable manners. (I have worked with both of them extensively). Others - Andris Nelsons, Jakub Hrůša, John Wilson and we can go way back to find more. One can fill concert halls and garner plaudits and awards (I now that's not all that matters) and not make a habit of lamping colleagues. This journalist likes the sound of his own voice very much and John Eliot was right to brush him aside.

You’re right. The irony of it all is that if JEG had a more placatory personality he might have been able to forge a Long term relationship with an orchestra or Opera House that he doesn’t in essence run . The latter carries of course a lot of attendant stress and responsibility. Working with a the security blanket of a large band or company might have helped him develop artistically and as a human. Being an autocrat is ultimately lonely and unfulfilling.
Incidentally the Spectator author has got one point right . A lot of people won’t give a stuff about JEG’s behaviour. He’ll no doubt not be comforted by all the support he got from commenters in the “Murdoch press” Times many of whom went into full “when I were but a lad the beak used to beat me senseless ” mode.
Which reminds me that after the Clarkson episode several people asked me why the BBC didn’t just hush it all up? They wanted him to stay presenting even though he’d hit a producer (several times).

[Bryn]

It is difficult to know. There are people who may resort to physical violence or verbal abuse at the slightest trigger, which I would suggest is unnacceptable. OTOH others may be so calm that they are ineffective. Just as we hope to modify the behaviour of young children who show "robust" tendencies - perhaps with some success - but to an extent excuse what was their earlier bad behavioiur - we may also decide that as it becomes increasingly difficult to modify the behaviour of older people sinking into dementia, that to some extent we also have to tolerate or excuse their behaviour as it gets worse. However we do not have to accept this in society at large.

It does not necessarily follow that people who showed "anger management" issues throughout much of their life will become more prone to violent outbursts as they get older, nor that generally placid people will not become almost inexplicably angry and difficult to handle in old age. I don't know whether there have been any studies on this, but I would be surprised if there were strong correlations between earlier and later behaviour in those who suffer from dementia.

Of course ulitmately the issues fade away with the demise of the protagonists.

Some salutory points there, Dave. Personal experience with a close family member in their final years tends to support the contention that age and demential tend to amplify earlier eracibility, rather than initiate it.

[Dave2002]

Some salutory points there, Dave. Personal experience with a close family member in their final years tends to support the contention that age and demential tend to amplify earlier eracibility, rather than initiate it.

Also some people with dementia can become very frustrated - probably not in itself damaging, but it can become so upsetting for them that they may react badly. Another concern is whether the person who is losing mental faculties knows this, or is worried by it. They can become really scared - and also for various reasons - such as forgetting to eat - start to halucinate. They may be aware that something isn't right, but not know how to fix the issues. Obviously in severe cases there aren't any fixes, but sometimes a good meal can restore some sort of normality and lucidity. Also infections, which are probably treatable, can have a really bad effect on people who aren't able to work things out for themselves.

[duncan]

Some salutory points there, Dave. Personal experience with a close family member in their final years tends to support the contention that age and demential tend to amplify earlier eracibility, rather than initiate it.

Violence in people with dementia is a major problem. As well as the profound distress it causes, violent behaviour is frequently the trigger for the carer being unable to cope for any longer. The person with dementia moves into a nursing home with the economic cost that entails and becomes a 'client' rather than a husband or wife. Consequently, dementia has been studied quite a lot, although perhaps not as much its impact might suggest.

I'm sure there are plenty of stories similar to Bryn's but it is well-known that many, many people become violent having never been so before. As Dave alludes, there are many triggering factors. Early stage dementia can involve exaggeration of previous traits but, as the condition progresses, people often suffer a complete destruction of personality and behave entirely out of character.

I doubt if this is of any relevance in Gardiner's case. By many accounts, this is not new behaviour. It has made the news this time because UK society is less tolerant of violent bullying in 2023 than even a decade previously.

[richardfinegold]

Violence in people with dementia is a major problem. As well as the profound distress it causes, violent behaviour is frequently the trigger for the carer being unable to cope for any longer. The person with dementia moves into a nursing home with the economic cost that entails and becomes a 'client' rather than a husband or wife. Consequently, dementia has been studied quite a lot, although perhaps not as much its impact might suggest.

I'm sure there are plenty of stories similar to Bryn's but it is well-known that many, many people become violent having never been so before. As Dave alludes, there are many triggering factors. Early stage dementia can involve exaggeration of previous traits but, as the condition progresses, people often suffer a complete destruction of personality and behave entirely out of character.

I doubt if this is of any relevance in Gardiner's case. By many accounts, this is not new behaviour. It has made the news this time because UK society is less tolerant of violent bullying in 2023 than even a decade previously.

As you mentioned the general discussion on Dementia probably doesn’t apply to JEG, as he otherwise seems highly functional. It is interesting how if one exhibits unacceptable behavior at an age where dementia becomes prevalent how we all tend to reach for cognitive decline as an explanation, even if the individual has exhibited the same behaviors throughout their lifetime.
I’m a General Internist, not a Neurologist. In my experience the onset of aggressive behaviors that patients did not exhibit earlier is most tied to Frontal Lobe Pathology, be it a Tumor, Stroke, or Atrophy that begins in that part of the brain. The frontal lobes appear to be where most of the restraing impulses, or what Freud labeled the Superego, are located.

[french frank]

As you mentioned the general discussion on Dementia probably doesn’t apply to JEG

The current (professional) situation may be retribution for past unacceptable behaviour, but it's still sad to see a distinguished musical career winding down on this note.

[RichardB]

In my experience the onset of aggressive behaviors that patients did not exhibit earlier is most tied to Frontal Lobe Pathology, be it a Tumor, Stroke, or Atrophy that begins in that part of the brain. The frontal lobes appear to be where most of the restraing impulses, or what Freud labeled the Superego, are located.

That was certainly true of my father, whose behaviour (and especially use of language) became much less restrained (although he didn't become violent) at the point when he was diagnosed with a brain tumour. (He was 77 and not suffering from dementia.) Once the diagnosis took place he was put on medication to relieve the pressure on the affected area and his behaviour returned to normal; unfortunately, though, the tumour was too advanced for surgery and he lived only a few more months.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Twaddle. I guess he doesn't rate Haitink and Rattle to name just two great conductors? - charismatic and with impeccable manners. (I have worked with both of them extensively). Others - Andris Nelsons, Jakub Hrůša, John Wilson and we can go way back to find more. One can fill concert halls and garner plaudits and awards (I now that's not all that matters) and not make a habit of lamping colleagues. This journalist likes the sound of his own voice very much and John Eliot was right to brush him aside.

Some of the finest conductors have been warm-hearted people - Barbirolli and Abbado spring to mind. Others, like Bernstein and Colin Davis, began in an autocratic way, but mellowed into decent human beings without losing any of their musical charisma.

[Simon Biazeck]

Some of the finest conductors have been warm-hearted people - Barbirolli and Abbado spring to mind. Others, like Bernstein and Colin Davis, began in an autocratic way, but mellowed into decent human beings without losing any of their musical charisma.

Yes, indeed. I worked with him in his final run of operas at the ROH. Ignoring bad behaviour in the belief that it's an integral and indispensable component of the creative process is ridiculous.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Yes, indeed. I worked with him in his final run of operas at the ROH. Ignoring bad behaviour in the belief that it's an integral and indispensable component of the creative process is ridiculous.

In the autobiographical BBC (broadcast) film with Davis, he specifically recalled asking himself one day, whether he wanted to carry on being like he was (a martinet -to whatever degree he was) or be a decent human being - and he changed for the latter.

[Alison]

Why did the LSO continue to hire JEG if he punched one of their players?

[oddoneout]

Why did the LSO continue to hire JEG if he punched one of their players?

Relative values to the business?

[Dave2002]

As you mentioned the general discussion on Dementia probably doesn’t apply to JEG, as he otherwise seems highly functional.

Difficult to know. My father died of bowel cancer, but it was also thought that at times his mental faculties - which remained variably good mostly - were affected by tumours developing in his brain.

JEG has achieved a lot - even if some don't like his musical traits - but it may now be time to "let him go". As with most people as they get older, prefer to remember the good things, rather than dwell on the not so good, though in some cases where people have maintained positions of trust and power and subsequently been seen to have been unworthy, it is harder to be forgiving, both of them, and the others who allowed the situation to continue.

For me JEG did introduce me to the splendid Monteverdi Vespers, and several other very worthwhile musical experiences.

[FRJames]

The interview that Gardiner gave to Tom Service on the occasion of his 80th Birthday is still available:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001kvld

The interview stays mainly on the musical straight and narrow except for the latter 10 minutes or so when Service asks 'Has life turned out the way you thought it would?' Gardiners rather tortured response, although guarded, shows a person who is not at ease with himself.

I would say that Service does a good job with this interview - whatever presentational issues he does have, he is not deferential and I think Gardiner knew that.

One final detail- at about 31' in, Gardiner is very complimentary to a young soloist who he had recently worked with. His name? Will Thomas.