John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[Sir Velo]

[Tony Halstead]

Of course those in positions of power should be answerable, whether they are CEOs, or youth team coaches.

If you are specifically directing the discussion towards child abuse,then we have to await the outcome of any trials. If football clubs are shown to have failed in their duty of care, the clamour for change ( and punishment) will, I am sure, be very great, and from the fans as well as those normally unconnected with specific clubs. Fans will want their own clubs to be squeaky clean. I certainly do.

If your suggestion is that I am applying a double standard to JEG, that is wrong. I haven't said anything negative about him, at all. I am the only person on this thread to have claimed to have had any direct experience of working with him, although there must be others on here who have.
As regards Robert King, all I have complained of is the double standard that seems to be applied to him, compared to others convicted of similar offences.

As from now, teamsaint, you are one of TWO people on this thread who have worked with / for Sir J.E.G.
The other one is 'yours truly'.
I first played for him in about 1979/1980 in his 'Erato' recording of Handel's ''L'Allegro/(etc etc)" and subsequently from about 1984 to 1993 or so. I assure you that I am NOT a 'toady' or a 'creep' when I say that playing for him is always a 'rewarding challenge'. I never, ever felt 'bullied', so, please let's knock that one on the head. He doesn't bully but he strongly, VERY strongly 'persuades' you to his point of view, which is always ultra-musical. Even if you don't agree with him, you can always appreciate the logic of what he is requesting (not 'demanding', as another boarder has pointed out). In the end, his palpable vision of, and love of the music shines through and you find yourself simply wanting to play as well as possible for him.

[vinteuil]

Well, quite simply, it isn't anything to do with artistic necessity. But I'm not sure about whether society "should allow" this or that attitude. Society should be such as not to encourage hectoring/intimidating behaviour either between musicians or between anyone else.

... I would like this to be the case. I wonder however whether there may not be lines of work (I am thinking perhaps of restaurant chefs, lead surgeons, and possibly conductors .... ) where the 'best' results are sometimes produced by 'dictatorial' behaviour which would repel us if we encountered it in our own walks of life.

[ahinton]

Where did you read this, SirV? (I'd heard that Stravinsky was a strict disciplinarian, but I've not seen accounts from Schoenberg's children to suggest this was the case with Arnie, too.)

That's also the first that I've ever heard of this - which isn't to state that it's untrue, but it is to say that some corroborative evidence mightn't come amiss.

[vinteuil]

As from now, teamsaint, you are one of TWO people on this thread who have worked with / for Sir J.E.G.
The other one is 'yours truly'. .

... my only professional encounter with John Eliot Gardiner was not a particularly happy one. I had to 'pull' a series of concert engagements he was planning in south Asia as part of a larger tour, because his demands were proving impossible to be met by the various receiving houses where he was to perform. I have no particular criticisms of him here - the gap between what he would hope to expect and the chaotic arrangements of Indian concert halls should have been foreseen way before I had to pull the plug. But it was an unhappy episode, with a lots of bruised feelings all around.

[Sir Velo]

Where did you read this, SirV? (I'd heard that Stravinsky was a strict disciplinarian, but I've not seen accounts from Schoenberg's children to suggest this was the case with Arnie, too.)

Donald McLeod mentioned it on COTW just the other week. Georg, IIRC, was slapped in the face by "Arnie" for returning home early from school on one occasion, and regularly mistreated according to the programme.

I know it's awful when our heroes are found to have feet of clay isn't it?

[Tony Halstead]

... my only professional encounter with John Eliot Gardiner was not a particularly happy one. I had to 'pull' a series of concert engagements he was planning in south Asia as part of a larger tour, because his demands were proving impossible to be met by the various receiving houses where he was to perform. I have no particular criticisms of him here - the gap between what he would hope to expect and the chaotic arrangements of Indian concert halls should have been foreseen way before I had to pull the plug. But it was an unhappy episode, with a lots of bruised feelings all around.

EBS 'World tour' 1988?
My wife was on that.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Donald McLeod mentioned it on COTW just the other week. Georg, IIRC, was slapped in the face by "Arnie" for returning home early from school on one occasion, and regularly mistreated according to the programme.

I know it's awful when our heroes are found to have feet of clay isn't it?

Yes. Details are here:

http://schoenbergseuropeanfamily.org/as3_pages/as3_chap4.html

[Richard Barrett]

... I would like this to be the case. I wonder however whether there may not be lines of work (I am thinking perhaps of restaurant chefs, lead surgeons, and possibly conductors .... ) where the 'best' results are sometimes produced by 'dictatorial' behaviour which would repel us if we encountered it in our own walks of life.

I think there might be a difference here between "hectoring/intimidating" and the necessity for a strict chain of command. Also, there might be differences of opinion as to whether a strict chain of command is or isn't appropriate in musical situations. On the one hand (staying with period orchestral performance) you have someone like JEG and on the other you have someone like Frans Brüggen whose approach from what I've heard was anything but authoritarian. There's a clear difference in the results to be sure, but I wouldn't say I preferred one to the other.

[teamsaint]

As from now, teamsaint, you are one of TWO people on this thread who have worked with / for Sir J.E.G.
The other one is 'yours truly'.
I first played for him in about 1979/1980 in his 'Erato' recording of Handel's ''L'Allegro/(etc etc)" and subsequently from about 1984 to 1993 or so. I assure you that I am NOT a 'toady' or a 'creep' when I say that playing for him is always a 'rewarding challenge'. I never, ever felt 'bullied', so, please let's knock that one on the head. He doesn't bully but he strongly, VERY strongly 'persuades' you to his point of view, which is always ultra-musical. Even if you don't agree with him, you can always appreciate the logic of what he is requesting (not 'demanding', as another boarder has pointed out). In the end, his palpable vision of, and love of the music shines through and you find yourself simply wanting to play as well as possible for him.

Thanks for that Tony.
It sounds an awful lot like the way that I remember him directing us 40 years ago.

Very pleased to have coaxed you and Vinny out of the woodwork, with some fascinating thoughts....hopefully there will be others who can do the same.

[Sir Velo]

I think there might be a difference here between "hectoring/intimidating" and the necessity for a strict chain of command. Also, there might be differences of opinion as to whether a strict chain of command is or isn't appropriate in musical situations.

While the co-operative, collegiate approach may well be preferred when building up a rapport over an extended period, often there isn't the opportunity given limited time for rehearsals and recording. Unless one is prepared to tolerate musical anarchy someone has to call the shots. Don't forget JEG stands or falls by record sales and critical opinion. A poor or indifferent performance and he takes the rap. The rank and file orchestra members have no such concerns.

[MrGongGong]

While the co-operative, collegiate approach may well be preferred when building up a rapport over an extended period, often there isn't the opportunity given limited time for rehearsals and recording. Unless one is prepared to tolerate musical anarchy someone has to call the shots. Don't forget JEG stands or falls by record sales and critical opinion. A poor or indifferent performance and he takes the rap. The rank and file orchestra members have no such concerns.

Aaaah yes the whole "we need a tyrant to stop anarchy" myth
I think this might have worked in the past but if I think about many of those who are truly inspired they tend NOT to see everything in such a Megalomaniacal way...

Some people get away with it because of power and money but it strikes me as rather ugly and unnecessary.
Treating highly skilled musicians badly is not the way to go IMV

BUT with JEG i'm only going by what people who HAVE worked with him have said and (as we can read) opinions are divided.

[Richard Barrett]

While the co-operative, collegiate approach may well be preferred when building up a rapport over an extended period, often there isn't the opportunity given limited time for rehearsals and recording.

Of course, building up a rapport over an extended period is exactly what JEG and for that matter Brüggen have done - as Tony will confirm, many people have been playing regularly for one or the other for many years. I don't agree at all that limited rehearsal time gives a choice between authoritarianism and anarchy - last month I was working with the SWR Symphony Orchestra and Peter Rundel, and the atmosphere in the (very limited!) rehearsals was entirely collegial and relaxed and with no lack of discipline. All it takes is for everyone concerned to take responsibility for their artistic input. You seem to have little faith in musicians' readiness to do so.

[vinteuil]

EBS 'World tour' 1988?
My wife was on that.

... yes, I think it must have been that. I was at the British High Commission in New Delhi at the time.

[jayne lee wilson]

FROM BOOKLET NOTE TO: BEETHOVEN MISSA SOLEMNIS, ORR/MONTEVERDI CHOIR/JEG/SOLI DEO GLORIA 2013

"I am not a member of either the Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique or the Monteverdi Choir (as John Eliot jokingly pointed out to us, ‘none of the soloists would be good enough to be in the choir!’), but I was privileged to spend two months literally travelling the world with these incredible, dedicated, generous musicians whose reserves of energy and concentration never waned, even on what looked on paper like an impossible schedule.
The quality of their work never dipped for a single second throughout the fifteen concerts
that we gave all over Europe and the USA. I have never seen such a committed orchestra from close proximity; the power and dexterity of the strings,
the rasping of the amazing horns, the precision of the mighty trumpets, the amazing team unit that the woodwinds were and, sometimes most impressively, Robert and his timpani. The level of singing from everyone was so high and utterly breathtaking.
During this tour the soloists were moved to various positions in front of, next to and immersed in the choir and it was such a joy to have different members nearby so that their individual talents could be heard.
But this musical brilliance is what we all get to see in the concert hall, and we can all understand and appreciate it. What the audience doesn’t see
is the way ninety people cope with getting up at silly o’clock to catch planes from airports miles away, getting on coaches, travelling for far too many hours than are normally accepted, eating lunches in crappy service stations in Belgium and Hungary, having five hours sleep, travelling, rehearsing, making home
in a hotel for a brief stay, some with babies or medical ailments. And then performing as though
their lives depended on it. And some even found time to do every bit of tourist activity and eating experience (not drinking obviously) possible: they were all there for each other and turned all the tedium into fun. I am so very impressed by them all.
I have loved these two months as much as any in my career, and I will miss the Missa Solemnis so much – a piece that before I found very strange, yet now makes sense. There are moments that are some of the most beautiful that I know: the choir singing Benedictus in unison while the violin solo hovers over them (always so beautifully played by the leader Peter Hanson) is probably the moment that I looked forward to most in every performance. Even if I am not religious, those few bars showed that there is much more to our world than we know... or does it just show that music may be the most powerful thing that we possess?"

Matthew Rose bass

Recorded live at the Barbican Hall, London on 17 October 2012

VIDE ALSO #53 above