John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[doversoul1]

Sometimes I'm grateful for insomnia.

[...]

... but when results are as remarkable as this, frankly I don't give a damn how he got them.

Sorry to hear about your insomnia. No wonder you were quite a bit mixed up in your previous post (talking about writers and painters, or confusing criticism with bullying).

So you don’t give a damn about how the members of the orchestra may have suffered* as long as what you hear makes you feel good? All that matters to you is the music you hear? I suppose that is one way of listening to music and nobody can accuse you of it. All the same, don’t you think it would be rather more decent if you kept the thought to yourself instead of declaring so proudly that you don’t care about anyone's suffering?

* I suppose in the case of JEG, since we are talking without evidence, this is not a very fruitful discussion, except for the matter of principle.

[Petrushka]

Sorry to hear about your insomnia. No wonder you were quite a bit mixed up in your previous post (talking about writers and painters, or confusing criticism with bullying).

So you don’t give a damn about how the members of the orchestra may have suffered* as long as what you hear makes you feel good? All that matters to you is the music you hear? I suppose that is one way of listening to music and nobody can accuse you of it. All the same, don’t you think it would be rather more decent if you kept the thought to yourself instead of declaring so proudly that you don’t care about anyone's suffering?

* I suppose in the case of JEG, since we are talking without evidence, this is not a very fruitful discussion, except for the matter of principle.

Suffering? I would be very interested indeed to hear from members of the LSO of anyone 'suffering' in the making of this CD. The LSO is a self-governing orchestra and can choose whomsoever they please to conduct their concerts and have their work documented on the LSO Live label. That they do this with JEG tells you all you need to know.

There is, as far as I know, one very well documented evidence of JEG physically attacking a trumpet player in the LSO. Unacceptable behaviour, certainly, but if the LSO felt so strongly against working with him again, JEG would have been shown the door and well deserved it would have been in my view. But they didn't.

[pastoralguy]

This is obviously a situation that does not need levity. However, it does remind me of the story about Toscanini given a trumpet player in the BBCSO a real telling off. The trumpet player says to himself 'OK, you bugger. I'm going to have this out with you'. So, the trumpet player waits at the stage door of the old Queen's Hall for Toscanini and, when he exits, gives him a taste of his own medicine. The trumpet player is an ex-navy man and tells the great conductor EXACTLY what he thinks of him.

Once the trumpet player is finished, Toscanini sneers set him and says 'It's a too late to apologise now...!'

[Once Was 4]

This is obviously a situation that does not need levity. However, it does remind me of the story about Toscanini given a trumpet player in the BBCSO a real telling off. The trumpet player says to himself 'OK, you bugger. I'm going to have this out with you'. So, the trumpet player waits at the stage door of the old Queen's Hall for Toscanini and, when he exits, gives him a taste of his own medicine. The trumpet player is an ex-navy man and tells the great conductor EXACTLY what he thinks of him.

Once the trumpet player is finished, Toscanini sneers set him and says 'It's a too late to apologise now...!'

Or the trumpet player in the LSO - a Yorkshire-man from Hebden Bridge - after an evening rehearsal through which the (none-British) conductor had sneered, shouted and hectored his way before sending the brass out early. Our hero deliberately walked past the rostrum and, as he did so, said "there's no need to be so bloody rude!" The conductor turned to the leader and said "vot that man say?" The leader thought quickly and replied "he said good night maestro!"

A violinist friend often used to say about conductors "they have to go to the toilet just like me!" (actually toilet was not the word that he used but we will let that pass!)

I have been lucky - there are just two people - one a conductor (who has been often eulogised on this forum) and one a manager about whom I often think "if I met them tomorrow would I be polite to them now they have no power over me?" Not bad really. But what does get my ire is the lack of respect shown to professional orchestral players by certain people who are 'in' to music.

[jayne lee wilson]

Sorry to hear about your insomnia. No wonder you were quite a bit mixed up in your previous post (talking about writers and painters, or confusing criticism with bullying).

So you don’t give a damn about how the members of the orchestra may have suffered* as long as what you hear makes you feel good? All that matters to you is the music you hear? I suppose that is one way of listening to music and nobody can accuse you of it. All the same, don’t you think it would be rather more decent if you kept the thought to yourself instead of declaring so proudly that you don’t care about anyone's suffering?

* I suppose in the case of JEG, since we are talking without evidence, this is not a very fruitful discussion, except for the matter of principle.

Well, what wilfully misrepresentational, literal-minded condescension from someone who seems scarcely to have heard a note of the recordings which I brought into the discussion, or apparently never studied the complex contradictions of human artistic creativity and the strange paths it can follow. And as for "mixed up" - good grief! I was fairly obviously drawing parallels with other arts, regarding how intensely original and high quality artistic creation can often be arrived at. Which is a frequently uncomfortable knowledge. "Confusing criticism with bullying"? (Oh, some misrepresentation that is). No just recalling my own (and others') experiences of being pushed into greater effort and achievement, beyond where we thought we could go.

Your last line does of course make everything else you say quite meaningless, but still:
Claiming that I "don't care about anyone's suffering" is a long way from my saying that, after hearing a wonderful musical performance, I don't care what it took (in the strict context of practice and rehearsal and bloody hard work, (whether enjoying it or not, whether liking the person in charge or not) to achieve it, which as any artistically sensitive person would usually understand, is, for God's sake, poetic licence.
If JEG had actually, evidentially, (as opposed to gossip and hearsay on internet chatlines like this one) been the cause of some terrible pain and distress to his performers, how likely is it that he would have lasted, or achieved much at all? If that had actually been the well-evidenced, well-reported case, of course it might change the way I think about them - but not the final judgement of their musical qualities, which is a listening experience, nothing more nor less.

Would the orchestral players involved in such recordings prefer me to listen to them, listen devotedly and repeatedly and with love to them; or ignore them on the basis of gossip hearsay and anecdote?

As few people here seem interested in actually listening to the music, to the devoted love and effort and inspiration that has gone into so many of John Eliot Gardiner's recordings, evident from the response of his players and quotes from some of them, I better resign from this thread forthwith before I waste any more of my time, knowledge and energy on such stony ground!

[Bryn]

This, from the Indie back in 1994 has JEG responding to questions about his bad boy reputation from Stephen Johnson.

[doversoul1]

jayne lee wilson #80

I don't care what it took (in the strict context of practice and rehearsal and bloody hard work, (whether enjoying it or not, whether liking the person in charge or not) to achieve it, which as any artistically sensitive person would usually understand, is, for God's sake, poetic licence.

If that was what you were talking about in your previous post, I apologise. I thought we were still discussing the question teamsaint asked; ‘does the end justify the means?’ Poetic license (if that was what it meant to be) is not a good thing to use in discussion/debate especially when you are changing the subject.

[MrGongGong]

. That they do this with JEG tells you all you need to know.
.

How sweet and innocent

All I DO know is what people who have worked with the man say, some of whom would avoid to do so in future.

[Petrushka]

How sweet and innocent

All I DO know is what people who have worked with the man say, some of whom would avoid to do so in future.

So, out of general interest, please let me know what is wrong with the following:

1. The LSO is a self governing orchestra
2. They can invite or 'uninvite' whichever conductors they want.
3. Assuming that there isn't some great public clamour to document JEG's concerts with them, why are these appearing on the LSO Live label?

Had I been the LSO Chairman at the time of the trumpet player incident I'd have told JEG his services were no longer required.

[french frank]

How sweet and innocent

All I DO know is what people who have worked with the man say, some of whom would avoid to do so in future.

Undeniable that he has a reputation - but in how many cases of 'what people say' is there any investigation of a) the other side of the story or b) what others say about the reported incidents (in which they were not personally involved)?

But I was severely told off by a teacher relative when I said I didn't understand why groups put up with any bullying at all when they could go en masse and ask the bully to stop. Or else.

Sweet and innocent, moi?

[EnemyoftheStoat]

3. Assuming that there isn't some great public clamour to document JEG's concerts with them, why are these appearing on the LSO Live label?

The same might have been asked of Gergiev; what was the point of that Berlioz in his latter days? There was an R&J that had its backside thoroughly skelped by the competition as well as a fairly pointless Fantastique.

Public clamour has never really been a driver for LSO Live but JEG's Mendelssohn is at least interesting and the ones I've sampled have been very good.

[doversoul1]

But I was severely told off by a teacher relative when I said I didn't understand why groups put up with any bullying at all when they could go en masse and ask the bully to stop. Or else.

Sweet and innocent, moi?

Bullying usually happens in groups where the members of the group cannot or will not do that for various reasons. I don’t think many people put the sense of justice over their job security. In the case of children., they probably can’t comprehend what is happening and why it is happening, let alone what they could do to change the situation.

[MrGongGong]

So, out of general interest, please let me know what is wrong with the following:

1. The LSO is a self governing orchestra

Nothing

2. They can invite or 'uninvite' whichever conductors they want.

Indeed "they" can (but it all depends on which "they" are doing the inviting)

3. Assuming that there isn't some great public clamour to document JEG's concerts with them, why are these appearing on the LSO Live label?

Because he is famous, his recordings are considered wonderful and sell lots of "units"

[LHC]

Had I been the LSO Chairman at the time of the trumpet player incident I'd have told JEG his services were no longer required.

The story I heard suggested that both the trumpet player and JEG behaved very poorly. If it had been at my place of work, both would have been disciplined, and probably given written warnings.

[Sir Velo]

But I was severely told off by a teacher relative when I said I didn't understand why groups put up with any bullying at all when they could go en masse and ask the bully to stop. Or else.

Sweet and innocent, moi?

Hard to see exactly what your pedagogical relative could find to complain about with your stance here. IWHT, this was exactly the kind of approach which should be approved - direct and rational put in the form of a request rather than a demand.