John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[oddoneout]

You make my point nicely. What you say is true, and goes a long way to explain - at least as a marker, not a cause - why art is now sidelined as a polite branch of the social services, rather than a vibrant part of national life. Though I don't remember anyone in my lifetime apologising for the "bad behaviour" of artists: it was just thought of as part of the deal, something not to be chewed over in the public domain.

Is that a good reason to continue, unquestioningly, with the same behaviours, and tolerance(thus enablement) of them? And is it the only way to get great performances from, in this case, musicians? The alternative to physical violence does not have to be the social services version of performing arts. There is the area between those extremes which is where other such groups operate, and are successful.
Something that bothers me about the incident that brought matters to a head is the apparent gulf between the misdemeanor and the punishment. The singer made his exit on the wrong side of the stage at the end of the performance. Had he made numerous mistakes during the performance and that was the last straw(although still doesn't justify physical violence in my book) or was that a single small error that had had no impact on either the performance or the audience experience?

[Ein Heldenleben]

So people with excess talent have to be excused from the normal rules of human conduct because they need to be a—holes in order to produce Great Art?
As a Physician I saw where this kind of attitude was at first a kind of dogma and then completely rejected. Some Doctors would abuse Nurses, colleagues, even patients, and everyone would coddle them because of their talent. Eventually the counter factual became obvious; namely there were equally talented individuals who achieved similar outcomes and managed to be respectful of others. True, in moments of crisis one has to be brusque, but everyone draws a line at Physical Violence. And let’s be real; some insults traded in an operating room where someone is bleeding to death are more forgivable than someone botching an exit in a nineteenth century opera. Violence, however is the clear rubicon that is never crossed without consequences.
People aren’t required to be loving and caring, but imo they should be required to be respectful

I was once filming an operation where a surgeon was performing an extremely delicate operation on the genitalia of a male baby . At one point a nurse dropped a tray of instruments making a sound so loud I nearly jumped . The surgeon didn’t so much as twitch let alone shout . He did however turn towards the nurse and raise an eyebrow. I was very impressed - losing your temper in these stress situations just doesn’t help.

[Maclintick]

JEG got away with bad behaviour because he was the power player.

Which of course is Andrew Mellor's main beef with a classical music "industry" (sorry !) still in thrall to domineering alpha males. At the risk of infuriating those who agree with Parson Yorick that things are managed better on Le Continent, I offer the recent brouhaha surrounding F-XR, who while not actually lamping any of his players, sought to impress them with his artistic credentials by sending images of his genitalia ( see FoR3 thread here https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/cl...oth-in-trouble ) an act of Fayed-esque arrogance which would merit immediate termination in any normal organisation.Not so in SWR, apparently, where, as in the JEG case, feuding factions in the orchestra and management launched into media contumely once the decision to retain his services became clear (this may have changed in the F-X R case, for all I know). Interestingly, Les Siècles, Gürzenich and the LSO dropped him like a hot potato, suggesting that attitudes in Europe towards miscreant maestros may be shifting.

It’s absolutely extraordinary that musicians still work with him. They must either be very forgiving or desperate for work. Bullying is a huge issue in both the media and the Arts largely because there are so many freelances and such a huge gap between the very richly rewarded stars and everyone else. Thankfully things are beginning to change.

I suspect the need to pay the mortgage might count, here...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Which of course is Andrew Mellor's main beef with a classical music "industry" (sorry !) still in thrall to domineering alpha males. At the risk of infuriating those who agree with Parson Yorick that things are managed better on Le Continent, I offer the recent brouhaha surrounding F-XR, who while not actually lamping any of his players, sought to impress them with his artistic credentials by sending images of his genitalia ( see FoR3 thread here https://www.for3.org/forums/forum/cl...oth-in-trouble ) an act of Fayed-esque arrogance which would merit immediate termination in any normal organisation.Not so in SWR, apparently, where, as in the JEG case, feuding factions in the orchestra and management launched into media contumely once the decision to retain his services became clear (this may have changed in the F-X R case, for all I know). Interestingly, Les Siècles, Gürzenich and the LSO dropped him like a hot potato, suggesting that attitudes in Europe towards miscreant maestros may be shifting.


I suspect the need to pay the mortgage might count, here...

Many freelancers in TV are so desperate for work they’ll put up with anything. The real scandal is companies refusing to pay hotel overnights and people driving ridiculous distances at the end of long days - something that the Guardian picked up on recently.

[Barbirollians]

So people with excess talent have to be excused from the normal rules of human conduct because they need to be a—holes in order to produce Great Art?
As a Physician I saw where this kind of attitude was at first a kind of dogma and then completely rejected. Some Doctors would abuse Nurses, colleagues, even patients, and everyone would coddle them because of their talent. Eventually the counter factual became obvious; namely there were equally talented individuals who achieved similar outcomes and managed to be respectful of others. True, in moments of crisis one has to be brusque, but everyone draws a line at Physical Violence. And let’s be real; some insults traded in an operating room where someone is bleeding to death are more forgivable than someone botching an exit in a nineteenth century opera. Violence, however is the clear rubicon that is never crossed without consequences.
People aren’t required to be loving and caring, but imo they should be required to be respectful

Well said .

[vinteuil]

At the risk of infuriating those who agree with Parson Yorick that things are managed better on Le Continent, I offer the recent brouhaha surrounding F-XR, who while not actually lamping any of his players, sought to impress them with his artistic credentials by sending images of his genitalia ... ( an act of Fayed-esque arrogance which would merit immediate termination in any normal organisation...

... my privileging of continental Europe over a benighted UK was specifically with regard to political approaches to cultural funding. I have no wish to endorse other nations' approaches to what I too would see as unacceptable behaviour by 'artists' ...

.

[Maclintick]

... my privileging of continental Europe over a benighted UK was specifically with regard to political approaches to cultural funding. I have no wish to endorse other nations' approaches to what I too would see as unacceptable behaviour by 'artists' ...

Definitely in agreement with you over arts funding. I'm pretty sure Parson Yorick would be aghast at the cultural vandalism inflicted by the deadly duo of Dorries and Serota in the last funding round. Oops, getting a bit too political, here. Hope FF doesn't cancel me..

[Master Jacques]

So people with excess talent have to be excused from the normal rules of human conduct because they need to be a—holes in order to produce Great Art?

Yes, in a word.

[And leaving aside your casual evocation of 'normal'!]

[Master Jacques]

As a fully paid up member of that egregious profession I must say I find this remark beyond the pale.

Oh dear, I am managing to offend everyone today! It probably won't make it better, to tell you that I studied accountancy, getting as far as Part 1 Chartered (with distinction) before running away to direct Aida in Newcastle. But - despite my fall from grace - I still think Luca Pacioli's double entry system is one of the most beautiful constructs ever imagined by the human race.

[Master Jacques]

The point I find difficult is that you don't actually appear to mean 'we': you mean 'you' or 'they' - in this case people who take a different view of a "quick slap across the face' - which is acceptable in the name of producing something called 'good art' ( even in defence of 'a self-promoting conductor and his rather patchy artistic record.')? A lot of individual subjectivity involved here.

Fair questions.

I do mean "we", because we are all complicit in accepting the social mores of our times and places. That's part of our social contract. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to apologise for my country to outsiders, over the last decade or so.

I think it is important to describe events as they happened. In this case, a quick slap across the face is the generally reported version of the incident (nobody's contradicted it), and there has been no mention of a "punch" except on social media.

Yes, good art is something which can never (or only rarely, in brief shining moments, such as early Jacobean drama) be produced by well-ordered committees or collectives, but needs one person in total control. Brecht is very interesting on this question: he thought he was in control of The Threepenny Opera, and was miffed when he discovered that it was really Weill's show and that he'd only been the catalyst.

It's not relevant whether I am a Gardiner fan, or (more usually) not. Nor am I defending his action. I'm questioning the effect - the moral impact on "us", if you like - of making such a meal of somebody else's petty misdemeanour. If he wasn't a world-famous conductor it wouldn't even have made the local press. Why the double standard?

I have no opinion on whether the semi-staged production of Les troyens in this question was good art, as I didn't cover it at the Proms. It's certainly an opera which needs good artistry in production, to paper over Berlioz's artistic cracks, and it seems to have been liked - both before and after Sir John's being kicked off his own gig.

[Master Jacques]

I was once filming an operation where a surgeon was performing an extremely delicate operation on the genitalia of a male baby . At one point a nurse dropped a tray of instruments making a sound so loud I nearly jumped . The surgeon didn’t so much as twitch let alone shout . He did however turn towards the nurse and raise an eyebrow. I was very impressed - losing your temper in these stress situations just doesn’t help.

I love the anecdote. But losing your rag with recalcitrant actors and singers is a very different matter. It often does help, saving time by reminding the shipload of fools that they need to pull together under the Captain's direction. It also has the valuable side effect of uniting them against a common enemy. That (for better or worse!) is often the deal with the performing arts.

[oddoneout]

Fair questions.

I do mean "we", because we are all complicit in accepting the social mores of our times and places. That's part of our social contract. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to apologise for my country to outsiders, over the last decade or so.

I think it is important to describe events as they happened. In this case, a quick slap across the face is the generally reported version of the incident (nobody's contradicted it), and there has been no mention of a "punch" except on social media.

Yes, good art is something which can never (or only rarely, in brief shining moments, such as early Jacobean drama) be produced by well-ordered committees or collectives, but needs one person in total control. Brecht is very interesting on this question: he thought he was in control of The Threepenny Opera, and was miffed when he discovered that it was really Weill's show and that he'd only been the catalyst.

It's not relevant whether I am a Gardiner fan, or (more usually) not. Nor am I defending his action. I'm questioning the effect - the moral impact on "us", if you like - of making such a meal of somebody else's petty misdemeanour. If he wasn't a world-famous conductor it wouldn't even have made the local press. Why the double standard?

I have no opinion on whether the semi-staged production of Les troyens in this question was good art, as I didn't cover it at the Proms. It's certainly an opera which needs good artistry in production, to paper over Berlioz's artistic cracks, and it seems to have been liked - both before and after Sir John's being kicked off his own gig.

Because he isn't just "someone else"? He is a high profile, very influential person and as such his behaviour makes bigger ripples in terms of the effect on others. It may only be subconscious but seeing someone in that position behaving like that risks making it seem normal and acceptable - even expected, perpetuating the perception of extreme behaviour being somehow a necessary part of high artistic endeavour and achievement.
Do you have any qualifiers in your support of artistic talent excusing bad conduct? Where does Robert King sit in that view? Please note, I am asking because I would be interested to know.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Fair questions.

I do mean "we", because we are all complicit in accepting the social mores of our times and places. That's part of our social contract. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to apologise for my country to outsiders, over the last decade or so.

I think it is important to describe events as they happened. In this case, a quick slap across the face is the generally reported version of the incident (nobody's contradicted it), and there has been no mention of a "punch" except on social media.

Yes, good art is something which can never (or only rarely, in brief shining moments, such as early Jacobean drama) be produced by well-ordered committees or collectives, but needs one person in total control. Brecht is very interesting on this question: he thought he was in control of The Threepenny Opera, and was miffed when he discovered that it was really Weill's show and that he'd only been the catalyst.

It's not relevant whether I am a Gardiner fan, or (more usually) not. Nor am I defending his action. I'm questioning the effect - the moral impact on "us", if you like - of making such a meal of somebody else's petty misdemeanour. If he wasn't a world-famous conductor it wouldn't even have made the local press. Why the double standard?

I have no opinion on whether the semi-staged production of Les troyens in this question was good art, as I didn't cover it at the Proms. It's certainly an opera which needs good artistry in production, to paper over Berlioz's artistic cracks, and it seems to have been liked - both before and after Sir John's being kicked off his own gig.

‘ Classical Conductor hits singer ‘ believe you me it would have made the local press and indeed probably the nationals . A great story….thing is with a heavy metal band it wouldn’t be news or at least all that surprising . But because it white tie and tails and fancy composers it’s news …

[Master Jacques]

‘ Classical Conductor hits singer ‘ believe you me it would have made the local press and indeed probably the nationals . A great story….thing is with a heavy metal band it wouldn’t be news or at least all that surprising . But because it white tie and tails and fancy composers it’s news …

Your observation is true - and very instructive, as to the populist chav behaviour our society is prepared to indulge, and the perceived "elitism" of high art, which it wishes to attack by every means open to it.

[french frank]

I do mean "we", because we are all complicit in accepting the social mores of our times and places. That's part of our social contract. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to apologise for my country to outsiders, over the last decade or so.

If I understand you correctly (???), the 'social mores' would be what I would accept, I don't feel a need to apologise for what you describe as 'righteous' and 'mealy-mouthed, spiritually parsimonious and unforgiving' because I wouldn't describe them in those terms..

I think it is important to describe events as they happened. In this case, a quick slap across the face is the generally reported version of the incident (nobody's contradicted it), and there has been no mention of a "punch" except on social media.

Au contraire. The Guardian reported that witnesses described a 'quick' slap across the face, followed by a 'quick' punch on the mouth, after uttering the threat to throw a glass of beer over the culprit's head and being persuaded not to. And this after the show was over without any report of loud audience boos because someone exited left instead of right.

It's not relevant whether I am a Gardiner fan, or (more usually) not. Nor am I defending his action. I'm questioning the effect - the moral impact on "us", if you like - of making such a meal of somebody else's petty misdemeanour. If he wasn't a world-famous conductor it wouldn't even have made the local press. Why the double standard?

Perhaps the nub of the question: was it a 'petty misdemeanour' or a violent offence against the social mores? Tempora mutantur ... As others have said, his subsequent behaviour doesn't suggest regrets,