John Eliot Gardiner - the pros and cons...

[Master Jacques]

The 'creative industries' are often spoken of, to include such wider matters as managment, admin, employment as well as performance.

They are indeed, and I am sick to the back teeth of the phrase, a classic case of the tail wagging the dog. We've reached a point where the arts are so sunk in the industrial sludge of administrators, accountants, marketing, human resources and the rest, that there is little space for art. As the workings of the Arts Council - who care about everything and anyone but performers and artists - demonstrates. I am with Ein Heldenleben in finding the phrase disgusting.

[Master Jacques]

... Other European nations see things differently. As the Rev Mr Yorick says in A Sentimental Journey - '”They order,” said I, “this matter better in France.”'
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Yes indeed! I used to find myself using the phrase "too French" as a dismissive put down, but it's come back to bite me, and I now find myself quoting the Rev Mr Yorick most days of most weeks. We have become a mealy-mouthed, spiritually parsimonious and unforgiving rabble of ... well, not even shopkeepers, but accountants ... over this side of the channel, and I don't like us one little bit. I think I'd rather come back as a German though, all things considered.

To come back to Gardiner, I will be unpopular for daring to say this; but in my opinion far too much of this mealy-mouthed, parsimonious lack of forgiveness plays out in the social media "debate" here, although of course it is nobody's business but that of the people concerned.

Much of the bruhaha is generated by well-meaning pillars of rectitude who simply don't understand what creating a concert, play or other performance entails. They don't understand how deeply it controls actors, musicians or singers emotionally. If they did, they would recognise that physical and (often worse) verbal spats are part of the process. They flare up and die, and the participants can be best of friends again after the outburst. It happens because people care about what they are doing. They care a lot. This has nothing at all to do with "power trips", alpha male dominance, or anything so crude, and everything to do with the passionate self-belief that anyone with the slightest pretentions to an artistic career has to feel.

We seem to aspire to a neat suburbanity in which art is reduced to a polite (and completely disposable) branch of the social services. Please note: artists do not have to be caring, kind human beings to be good at their job. In fact - hard though this may be for society's pillars to swallow - sometimes these admirable qualities get in the way of making good art.

[Barbirollians]

Apologism for bad behaviour just because someone is an artist no longer cuts it . Punching that singer was just the latest in a long line of reports about his bad behaviour .

[Ein Heldenleben]

They are indeed, and I am sick to the back teeth of the phrase, a classic case of the tail wagging the dog. We've reached a point where the arts are so sunk in the industrial sludge of administrators, accountants, marketing, human resources and the rest, that there is little space for art. As the workings of the Arts Council - who care about everything and anyone but performers and artists - demonstrates. I am with Ein Heldenleben in finding the phrase disgusting.

Parasites that kill the host

[oddoneout]

Yes indeed! I used to find myself using the phrase "too French" as a dismissive put down, but it's come back to bite me, and I now find myself quoting the Rev Mr Yorick most days of most weeks. We have become a mealy-mouthed, spiritually parsimonious and unforgiving rabble of ... well, not even shopkeepers, but accountants ... over this side of the channel, and I don't like us one little bit. I think I'd rather come back as a German though, all things considered.

To come back to Gardiner, I will be unpopular for daring to say this; but in my opinion far too much of this mealy-mouthed, parsimonious lack of forgiveness plays out in the social media "debate" here, although of course it is nobody's business but that of the people concerned.

Much of the bruhaha is generated by well-meaning pillars of rectitude who simply don't understand what creating a concert, play or other performance entails. They don't understand how deeply it controls actors, musicians or singers emotionally. If they did, they would recognise that physical and (often worse) verbal spats are part of the process. They flare up and die, and the participants can be best of friends again after the outburst. It happens because people care about what they are doing. They care a lot. This has nothing at all to do with "power trips", alpha male dominance, or anything so crude, and everything to do with the passionate self-belief that anyone with the slightest pretentions to an artistic career has to feel.

We seem to aspire to a neat suburbanity in which art is reduced to a polite (and completely disposable) branch of the social services. Please note: artists do not have to be caring, kind human beings to be good at their job. In fact - hard though this may be for society's pillars to swallow - sometimes these admirable qualities get in the way of making good art.

I accept what you say about the deep emotional involvement in performance, and I know that that can lead to bad temper and impatience. Over the decades I've experienced that, sometimes individually but mostly collectively, in my amateur music making.
What I don't accept is the idea that that strong feeling somehow justifies physical expression of that anger vented on an individual. Self-control and restraint are not the same as repression. Are other music directors somehow lacking in artistic merit - they don't feel strongly enough because they don't choose to express their artistic frustrations as physical violence?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes indeed! I used to find myself using the phrase "too French" as a dismissive put down, but it's come back to bite me, and I now find myself quoting the Rev Mr Yorick most days of most weeks. We have become a mealy-mouthed, spiritually parsimonious and unforgiving rabble of ... well, not even shopkeepers, but accountants ... over this side of the channel, and I don't like us one little bit. I think I'd rather come back as a German though, all things considered.

To come back to Gardiner, I will be unpopular for daring to say this; but in my opinion far too much of this mealy-mouthed, parsimonious lack of forgiveness plays out in the social media "debate" here, although of course it is nobody's business but that of the people concerned.

Much of the bruhaha is generated by well-meaning pillars of rectitude who simply don't understand what creating a concert, play or other performance entails. They don't understand how deeply it controls actors, musicians or singers emotionally. If they did, they would recognise that physical and (often worse) verbal spats are part of the process. They flare up and die, and the participants can be best of friends again after the outburst. It happens because people care about what they are doing. They care a lot. This has nothing at all to do with "power trips", alpha male dominance, or anything so crude, and everything to do with the passionate self-belief that anyone with the slightest pretentions to an artistic career has to feel.

We seem to aspire to a neat suburbanity in which art is reduced to a polite (and completely disposable) branch of the social services. Please note: artists do not have to be caring, kind human beings to be good at their job. In fact - hard though this may be for society's pillars to swallow - sometimes these admirable qualities get in the way of making good art.

Yes that used to be the excuse for bad behaviour in the media as well but to be honest it’s so seventies isn’t it.? I’ve worked on very stressful programmes where there has not been a single cross word and ones where one individual is determined to make trouble. These days they usually don’t work again. JEG got away with bad behaviour because he was the power player. . A lowly muso or singer would I reckon get ousted for a doing a tenth of what he did . In 40 years of TV and radio I never once witnessed physical assault . On the two verifiable occasions on which I’ve heard it happened (one was Clarkson ) both individuals were dismissed as they would be by any company with a half decent HR policy. It’s absolutely extraordinary that musicians still work with him. They must either be very forgiving or desperate for work. Bullying is a huge issue in both the media and the Arts largely because there are so many freelances and such a huge gap between the very richly rewarded stars and everyone else. Thankfully things are beginning to change.

[french frank]

What I don't accept is the idea that that strong feeling somehow justifies physical expression of that anger vented on an individual. Self-control and restraint are not the same as repression.

Would it justify the victim retaliating by knocking the assailant flat with impunity? I've never been involved in performance art, but had imagined that self-discipline in a working environment, even in the arts, was as important as raw emotion.

Are other music directors somehow lacking in artistic merit - they don't feel strongly enough because they don't choose to express their artistic frustrations as physical violence?

In this case it's clearly an individual attribute which most performing artists control. As for the phrase "creative industries" I can understand that lumping artists with theatre cafe profits is odious.

[Master Jacques]

Apologism for bad behaviour just because someone is an artist no longer cuts it.

You make my point nicely. What you say is true, and goes a long way to explain - at least as a marker, not a cause - why art is now sidelined as a polite branch of the social services, rather than a vibrant part of national life. Though I don't remember anyone in my lifetime apologising for the "bad behaviour" of artists: it was just thought of as part of the deal, something not to be chewed over in the public domain.

[Master Jacques]

It’s absolutely extraordinary that musicians still work with him. They must either be very forgiving or desperate for work. Bullying is a huge issue in both the media and the Arts largely because there are so many freelances and such a huge gap between the very richly rewarded stars and everyone else. Thankfully things are beginning to change.

There's a third explanation, less palatable to many here, which is that a large number of core Monteverdi players and singers simply don't agree with the social media line that there is anything much to forgive. In this case, there was no "bullying", only an irrascible conductor lashing out in a sudden fit of temper, over some straw which had broken the old camel's back.

I realise that may sound shocking to the souls of the righteous. But certainly the current state of play in Hamburg shows that audience members switching their seats to JEG's new outfit may feel the same way. "Forgiveness" is only meaningful when we feel there is something significant to forgive; and in a world where so much is going so very wrong, given the inequalities you list, it is very easy for the media to project their own guilt and impotence onto trivia, over which they can exercise their own waning power. That's what is happening here, along with a good lashing of envious hypocrisy.

(And note: I am no uncritical fan of this self-promoting conductor and his rather patchy artistic record. But the glee with which so many are sticking their little knives into the fallen monarch, is repulsive to me. A little bit of me thinks, 'there but for the grace of God, go I'.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's a third explanation, less palatable to many here, which is that a large number of core Monteverdi players and singers simply don't agree with the social media line that there is anything much to forgive. In this case, there was no "bullying", only an irrascible conductor lashing out in a sudden fit of temper, over some straw which had broken the old camel's back.

I realise that may sound shocking to the souls of the righteous. But certainly the current state of play in Hamburg shows that audience members switching their seats to JEG's new outfit may feel the same way. "Forgiveness" is only meaningful when we feel there is something significant to forgive; and in a world where so much is going so very wrong, given the inequalities you list, it is very easy for the media to project their own guilt and impotence onto trivia, over which they can exercise their own waning power. That's what is happening here, along with a good lashing of envious hypocrisy.

(And note: I am no uncritical fan of this self-promoting conductor and his rather patchy artistic record. But the glee with which so many are sticking their little knives into the fallen monarch, is repulsive to me. A little bit of me thinks, 'there but for the grace of God, go I'.)

Yes but you’ve never punched a singer have you ?
All the poor chap did was take the wrong exit. When I think of the things I’ve witnessed - lateness, refusal to carry out the most basic editorial instructions indolence , incompetence…

[Master Jacques]

Yes but you’ve never punched a singer have you ?
All the poor chap did was take the wrong exit. When I think of the things I’ve witnessed - lateness, refusal to carry out the most basic editorial instructions indolence , incompetence…

So you wanted to punch the reprobates?

I have never punched a singer, though I've been tempted to on occasion. Instead I gave them tongue-lashings, doing infinitely more harm to their egos than a quick slap across the face - which is what (rather than a "punch") is what John Eliot Gardiner is alleged to have done to a 29-year-old English bass who'd come on the wrong way.

That is what this is about, not some dolorous blow such as Tyson Fury might have inflicted on Lennox Lewis. We'd do well to remember that.

[Ein Heldenleben]

So you wanted to punch the reprobates?

I have never punched a singer, though I've been tempted to on occasion. Instead I gave them tongue-lashings, doing infinitely more harm to their egos than a quick slap across the face - which is what (rather than a "punch") is what John Eliot Gardiner is alleged to have done to a 29-year-old English bass who'd come on the wrong way.

That is what this is about, not some dolorous blow such as Tyson Fury might have inflicted on Lennox Lewis. We'd do well to remember that.

No of course not. Even getting shouty doesn’t help to be honest. Its only rock n’ roll after all.
Incidentally these days even tongue lashings will get you in trouble. It’s all about specific, timely and appropriate feedback …thank god I’m out of it as I’m told it’s now more or less anarchy with managers cowering in fear.

[richardfinegold]

Please note: artists do not have to be caring, kind human beings to be good at their job. In fact - hard though this may be for society's pillars to swallow - sometimes these admirable qualities get in the way of making good art.

So people with excess talent have to be excused from the normal rules of human conduct because they need to be a—holes in order to produce Great Art?
As a Physician I saw where this kind of attitude was at first a kind of dogma and then completely rejected. Some Doctors would abuse Nurses, colleagues, even patients, and everyone would coddle them because of their talent. Eventually the counter factual became obvious; namely there were equally talented individuals who achieved similar outcomes and managed to be respectful of others. True, in moments of crisis one has to be brusque, but everyone draws a line at Physical Violence. And let’s be real; some insults traded in an operating room where someone is bleeding to death are more forgivable than someone botching an exit in a nineteenth century opera. Violence, however is the clear rubicon that is never crossed without consequences.
People aren’t required to be loving and caring, but imo they should be required to be respectful

[Sir Velo]

We have become a mealy-mouthed, spiritually parsimonious and unforgiving rabble of ... well, not even shopkeepers, but accountants

As a fully paid up member of that egregious profession I must say I find this remark beyond the pale.

[french frank]

We have become a mealy-mouthed, spiritually parsimonious and unforgiving rabble

The point I find difficult is that you don't actually appear to mean 'we': you mean 'you' or 'they' - in this case people who take a different view of a "quick slap across the face' - which is acceptable in the name of producing something called 'good art' ( even in defence of 'a self-promoting conductor and his rather patchy artistic record.')? A lot of individual subjectivity involved here.