Who are the Division 2 composers from Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe?

[Lat-Literal]

No - and that's an interesting point.

Most (?all?) of the other composers discussed have been feted during their lifetimes, but not afterwards - they "spoke" to their audiences, but don't seem to have much to offer later listeners. But, of course, then there's the "catch 22" situation that, unless later audiences are actually given the chance to hear their work, there's no way of knowing if this is an accurate assessment of it, or just "wishful thinking"!

Thanks to book/record covers and greetings cards, we have a better idea of the work of lesser-known 19th and early 20th Century painters than we do of their contemporary composers (or novelists - anyone read any Marie Corelli or Edwin Lester Arnold recently?) - time is against us.

But, frenchie's mentioning of Vanhal and Vorisek does raise another point to be remembered - the activities and popularity of period bands actively interested in presenting lesser-known repertoire from the "18th" Century and earlier, which has completely changed critical attitudes to that repertoire and its composers. What might be needed with later 19th & early 20th Century composers is a similar resurgence of interest - from performers and audiences - in that repertory. But there are problems - very often, much larger ensembles are needed to perform the orchestral Music from this period than those required for Music from, say, 1790. And the Musicians' individual feeling of involvement is much less engaged when there are so many more of them on a platform, relying much more on a conductor - it's less attractive and engaging to perform than the orchestral Music of a century earlier.

Thank you ferney. I am very surprised that "the only composer who readily springs to my mind as an example of someone whose work stayed in the repertory for some years after his death and then suddenly dropped from favour is Spohr - who regularly appeared in concerts many decades after his death, but whose reputation didn't seem to survive after the Nineteenth century. (Perhaps Hummel and Cherubini, too?)". That doesn't mean I am questioning it with information to support that sort of question. I had just sensed that if someone were to consider, for example, the differences in content at the Proms across the decades or what was on the BBC Third Programme compared with BBC R3 today or - internationally and specifically with reference to this thread - what was regarded a hundred years ago in, say, Russia, rather than what is regarded today, a lot would not be similar.

I agree with the last paragraph in its entirety. It helps underpin why on occasions I have suggested that a separate weekly programme for that period could be introduced on R3.

I see this thread has followed the traditional pattern of attempts to create lists like this. Set out with a noble-enough purpose, then have it bogged down in pages of arguments about the specifics of the operation. To the point where I'm not even sure if any suggestions I make would even be legitimate. Oh well:

Gliere, Glazunov, Khachaturian, Tishchenko, Weinberg. There's five. Make of them what you will, but I enjoy all the music of theirs that I've heard.

But, on the principle that the unexamined life is not worth living, I don't see that what you describe as having happened has happened - and I don't think that the Forum would have survived these years if had simply been a repository of members' lists of composers/performers. Lats' request has occasioned several names being put into the mix - your own mighty handful included - and some of those names have occasioned debate/dispute about the nature of what we mean by "Second Division". As I understand it - and apologies to him if I have misunderstood - Lats was also interested in why composers with a reputation in their lifetimes have dropped from the "radar" in subsequent years. Forumistas (myself included) have offered a variety of suggestions as to why this might be. I don't think that this is an ignoble purpose - it adds to the richness of the Thread, and allows interested readers access to enjoyable Music.

For example - this First-Rate piece of Second-Rate Music; Balakirev's First Symphony from 1864-98, as recorded by Karajan and the Philharmonia in 1949. A work I find more delightful than Tchaikovsky's Third (or even his Second, and, on some days, even his Fourth).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC0fKZ9sIAk

FWiW, I think Lats' Thread has occasioned some very interesting comments and brought attention to many composers not previously mentioned on the Forum. I am very grateful to him for starting it, and I hope that the replies have not merely brought him closer to an answer to the questions he had in mind, but also given him as much unpredicted food for thought as it has given me.

Again, thanks to ferney and thanks to maestro. What could be viewed as a football reference in the title may not have been helpful. However, it was difficult to phrase. What would one say? Those who are not considered quite as significant as the ones who are considered most significant? Its comparative lack of clarity would have led to more questioning. To question what the question entails within reason is not always unhelpful. As I stressed in a recent post, it was never intended to be a popularity poll. Otherwise, the question would have been "what is your favourite composer from that part of Europe?" and there are plenty of such questions elsewhere. They don't often lead to informative discussion and more importantly never focus on the bulk of the composers who would conceivably qualify here. Then it comes down to saying "should the composers with a middle and low footprint be divided in any way or is it wrong to divide them?" That runs close to the redistribution argument where everyone other than the very top tier has to be made equal (see opposition to grammar schools) while the top tier is never ever questioned for always being the top tier (private education). Actually some below the top tier have more merit than others because history has told us so although much is airbrushed. The thread seeks to establish the factual distinctions irrespective of anyone's personal preferences including my own.

[Lat-Literal]

As a consequence of contributions to this thread, I am going to consider the following in more detail:

Agadzhikov, Arensky, Axman, Bacewicz, Balakirev, Bartok, Belimov, Berezovsky, Borodin, Catoire, Çiurlionis, Conus(es), Cui, Dargomyzhsky, Denisov, Dobias, Durko, Eben, Eller, Enescu, Erkin, Fibich, Foerster, Fucik, Glazunov, Gliere, Glinka, Goldmark, Golubev, Gorecki, Gretchaninov, Gubaidulina, Pavel Haas, Haba, Hurnik, Ippolitov-Ivanov, Ivanovs, Janacek, Jeremias, Jezek, Kabalevsky, Kabelac, Kalliwoda, Kancheli, Kapralova, Kapustin, Karlowicz, Kodaly, Koreshchenko, Korndorf, Krommer, Kricka, Kurtag, Lajtha, Ligeti, Lourie, Lutoslawski, Lyadov, Lyapunov, Maliszewski, Martinu, Matyushin, Medtner, Meyer, Mikalojus, Moniuszko, Mosolov, Myaskovsky, Jan Novak, Vitezslav Novak, Nurymov, Ostrcil, Paderewski, A Panufnik, Arvo Pärt, Jiri Pauer, Pejačević, Penderecki, Polovinkin, Popov, Porumbescu, Radulescu, Reicha, Rey, Roslavets, Rubinstein, Schnittke, Schulhoff, Shchedrin, Shebalin, Smetana, Suk, Szell, Szymanowski, Taneyev, Tansman, Tcherepnin, Tischenko, Tubin, Ustvolskaya, Vanhal, Volkonsky, Voříšek, Vycpalek, Weinberg.......and Economou.

(Amended on the basis of subsequent posts)

[Bryn]

As a consequence of contributions to this thread, I am going to consider the following in more detail:

Arensky, Axman, Bacewicz, Balakirev, Catoire, Çiurlionis, Conus, Cui, Denisov, Dobias, Durko, Eben, Enescu, Fibich, Foerster, Fucik, Glazunov, Gliere, Glinka, Gorecki, Gubaidulina, Pavel Haas, Haba, Hurnik, Ippolitov-Ivanov, Jeremias, Jezek, Kabalevsky, Kabelac, Kancheli, Kapralova, Kapustin, Karlowicz, Kodaly, Kricka, Kurtag, Ligeti, Lutoslawski, Lyadov, Lyapunov, Martinu, Medtner, Mikalojus, Moniuszko, Mosolov, Myaskovsky, Jan Novak, Vitezslav Novak, Nurymov, Ostrcil, Arvo Pärt, Panufnik, Jiri Pauer, Penderecki, Roslavets, Schnittke, Schulhoff, Shchedrin, Suk, Szymanowski, Tcherepnin, Tischenko, Ustvolskaya, Vanhal, Voříšek, Vycpalek,






tbc

What, no Лурья?

[Lat-Literal]

What, no Лурья?

It depends which one you mean - a key one is American.

I have now completed the list which is at 107.

[Bryn]

It depends which one you mean - a key one is American.

Born in what is now Belorus, skipped the USSR in 1921. Only became a US citizen somewhat later, having moved there in 1941.

[Lat-Literal]

Born in what is now Belorus, skipped the USSR in 1921. Only became a US citizen somewhat later, having moved there in 1941.

There you are then.

[Bryn]

There you are then.

So do you the regard Stravinsky as American and Kordorf as Canadian composers? Ah yes, let's not forget Korndorf.

[Lat-Literal]

So do you the regard Stravinsky as American and Kordorf as Canadian composers? Ah yes, let's not forget Korndorf.

Well ok, you've convinced me as I am not keen to enter an Alexander Rybak debate.

Lou(r)ie Lou(r)ie (and Korndorf)........I gotta go.

[P. G. Tipps]

If it helps from a musician's point of view. I find that I do get more involved with the performance of a work, if I like the piece, than if I don't. I kind of go on auto-pilot when I don't like a work, rather than be able to get inside the piece.

That makes a whole lot of sense to this non-musician, Bbm. I have always assumed musicians are human like the rest of us, with their own likes, dislikes and prejudices.

I also like professional critics who eulogise about the music I love and often wonder why those who disparage it ever got their jobs in the first place?

Some of the composers mentioned here as 'Division 2' are the very ones who first excited me about 'classical' music, Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin and Szymanowski being prime examples.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I see Conus in Lats' list in #107. I know only the rather lovely Violin Concerto (which I knew from Perlman's recording, coupled with the Korngold - and where he was spelt "Konus", which made the record easier to shelve*):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qnK_9G9dbo

(* - ie "accommodate alphabetically on the shelves of my collection", not "put on one side and ignore"!)

[Dave2002]

Born in what is now Belorus, skipped the USSR in 1921. Only became a US citizen somewhat later, having moved there in 1941.

This ons perhaps - or not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Louri%C3%A9

Are there others?

[Dave2002]

So do you the regard Stravinsky as American and Kordorf as Canadian composers? Ah yes, let's not forget Korndorf.

I'm guessing a typo - as I found this composer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Korndorf - but no sign of "Kordorf".

I'll overlook the spurious "the"

[BBMmk2]

That makes a whole lot of sense to this non-musician, Bbm. I have always assumed musicians are human like the rest of us, with their own likes, dislikes and prejudices.

I also like professional critics who eulogise about the music I love and often wonder why those who disparage it ever got their jobs in the first place?

Some of the composers mentioned here as 'Division 2' are the very ones who first excited me about 'classical' music, Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin and Szymanowski being prime examples.

I was most surprised with Suffy's findings! I mentioned earlier, as did others.

[Bryn]

I'm guessing a typo - as I found this composer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Korndorf - but no sign of "Kordorf".

I'll overlook the spurious "the"

'twas late.The composer of Sempre Tutti indeed. It was that work, conducted by Alexander Lazarev and broadcast by Radio 3, which introduced me to his work. Unfortunately, though it was available for download in fairly low rate mp3 format a few years ago, it has since been removed. However, his 3rd Symphony, also conducted by his stalwart enthusiast, Alex Lazarev, is to be found on YouTube:

Clearly a bootleg job with terrible audio quality, especially at the start of the symphony, but it's what there is. His Hymns II and III were issued on CD by Sony, and can be found with a bit of effort. There is also a Toccata CD of his cello music.

[Bryn]

This ons perhaps - or not? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Louri%C3%A9

Are there others?

Yes indeed that ons[sic].

Others? Not that I know of.