Who are the Division 2 composers from Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

All right; I've calmed down now.



A bit.

[Dave2002]

I think that most of the "other" composers have now been mentioned, includind Glazunov, Gretchaninov, Myaskovsky, Weinberg and a whole bunch more. I'll leave deciding on which "division" to place each one up to others. Has Stanisław Moniuszko been listed yet?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

All right; I've calmed down now.



A bit.

Perhaps Janacek is outside the East European remit, Moravia (now Czech Republic) being decidedly Western European in longitude, along with Sweden and southern Italy:-

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It should also be remembered, whenever we discuss the reasons for this or that composer's neglect, how much time is required to get to grips with a composer's "style". This occurred to me quite forcefully a few years ago when I went to see the Malevich retrospective exhibition at Tate Modern. With an Art exhibition of this nature, a viewer can see a representative selection of works from the entire course of the Artist's life - some fifty works could be examined at the viewer's leisure; the Artist's development could be experienced, his individual stylistic "pointers" could be assimilated; paintings could be revisited and viewed again with the memory of subsequent works - as well as the usual ability to study works for as long as one wished, from different vantage points; and with the advantage of being able to buy a programme book of the exhibition, so that memories of the images could be refreshed at one's leisure in subsequent years. So, after three hours, a viewer with no previous experience of the work can come away with a clear idea of what Malevich is "like".

This just couldn't be as possible with a composer such as, say, Mosolov (or any "second division", "neglected" composer) - even if the South Bank held a retrospective series of concerts devoted to his works, the amount of time necessary for a listener to encounter the Music would be much more demanding. Works could not be repeated at the listener's desire - nor could the performance be paused at any point for the listener to go over a section repeatedly: once a bar has been played, that's it until the next time the whole work is performed. And even if the performances are all first class, with total commitment from all players, the listener is dependant on intermediaries to receive the physical experience of the Music. There isn't that independence that Art enthusiasts enjoy.

With performers depending on receipts from ticket sales, lesser-known composers will remain lesser-known - and if Kancheli, Martinu, and RVW can't get a full house, what chance has Gretchaninov?! That's why youTube etc have the potential to be real game-changers; direct encounters of performances of these repertoires (rather than the reliance on the writings of experts) might in the future alter the way that the composers are perceived - and maybe even encourage greater representation in Live concert programming. And any attempts to perform lesser-known repertoire need support - which is why I've got my ticket for The Snow Maiden: I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but realistically, I don't think I'm going to like it much. But the fact that Opera North are chancing their arm with it deserves support.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Perhaps Janacek is outside the East European remit, Moravia (now Czech Republic) being decidedly Western European in longitude, along with Sweden and southern Italy

Mebbe - but I don't think that that was why Suffy put him in "Division 2"!

[Bryn]

Mebbe - but I don't think that that was why Suffy put him in "Division 2"!

Well, when you think about it, didn't manage a symphony, only got as far a sinfonietta. All we have of a piano sonata is two thirds of it. Only two string quartets ...

O.k, so they and a few operas, Mladi and the Concertino are all masterpieces. Oh, and that mass of his is pretty special, but is that really enough to put him in the premier league?

[Lat-Literal]

It should also be remembered, whenever we discuss the reasons for this or that composer's neglect, how much time is required to get to grips with a composer's "style". This occurred to me quite forcefully a few years ago when I went to see the Malevich retrospective exhibition at Tate Modern. With an Art exhibition of this nature, a viewer can see a representative selection of works from the entire course of the Artist's life - some fifty works could be examined at the viewer's leisure; the Artist's development could be experienced, his individual stylistic "pointers" could be assimilated; paintings could be revisited and viewed again with the memory of subsequent works - as well as the usual ability to study works for as long as one wished, from different vantage points; and with the advantage of being able to buy a programme book of the exhibition, so that memories of the images could be refreshed at one's leisure in subsequent years. So, after three hours, a viewer with no previous experience of the work can come away with a clear idea of what Malevich is "like".

This just couldn't be as possible with a composer such as, say, Mosolov (or any "second division", "neglected" composer) - even if the South Bank held a retrospective series of concerts devoted to his works, the amount of time necessary for a listener to encounter the Music would be much more demanding. Works could not be repeated at the listener's desire - nor could the performance be paused at any point for the listener to go over a section repeatedly: once a bar has been played, that's it until the next time the whole work is performed. And even if the performances are all first class, with total commitment from all players, the listener is dependant on intermediaries to receive the physical experience of the Music. There isn't that independence that Art enthusiasts enjoy.

With performers depending on receipts from ticket sales, lesser-known composers will remain lesser-known - and if Kancheli, Martinu, and RVW can't get a full house, what chance has Gretchaninov?! That's why youTube etc have the potential to be real game-changers; direct encounters of performances of these repertoires (rather than the reliance on the writings of experts) might in the future alter the way that the composers are perceived - and maybe even encourage greater representation in Live concert programming. And any attempts to perform lesser-known repertoire need support - which is why I've got my ticket for The Snow Maiden: I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but realistically, I don't think I'm going to like it much. But the fact that Opera North are chancing their arm with it deserves support.

All very reasonable points but they are essentially about what wouldn't make a composer upwardly mobile and what would make a composer upwardly mobile. They are not really about composers who have dropped down from A to B or started at B and flat lined or indeed started at B and dropped down either recently or any time up to 150-ish years ago.

I may have been the only person who has mentioned Cui who was one of The Five; Lyadov who was admired by Mussorgsky and latterly Tchaikovsky as well as being instrumental in Glazunov's early development; Lyapunov who was the most important member of Balakirev's latter-day circle and in a sense completed Liszt's "Transcendental Études"; Gliere who in a highly distinctive way drew on the folklore of Azerbaijan and Uzbekistan in "Shakh-Senem" and "Gyul’sara"; the family Conus, at least one of whom made a significant impression on Gliere and Scriabin; and Arensky who was one of the most successful composers and pianists in nineteenth-century Russia; among others, Russian and also not.

I don't claim to know huge amounts about most of them - obviously - although I am quite familiar with Gliere who could be considered substantially alongside the aforementioned Mosolov. That they haven't exactly set the forum alight with masses of enthusiasm suggests what? Presumably that they have been relegated to virtual obscurity over time. But there have been some terrific posts since I last contributed for which thanks to all. It is as if the thread has tilted back to an angle of 23 degrees along with our planet as a whole.

[Lat-Literal]

Voříšek and Vanhal?

I should especially acknowledge your post as it hasn't escaped my attention that these two are from an earlier period.

That is an important point when considering the picture in the round.

[cloughie]

Well, when you think about it, didn't manage a symphony, only got as far a sinfonietta. All we have of a piano sonata is two thirds of it. Only two string quartets ...

O.k, so they and a few operas, Mladi and the Concertino are all masterpieces. Oh, and that mass of his is pretty special, but is that really enough to put him in the premier league?

I'd put him firmly in Div 1 for Sinfonietta, Taras Bulba and Glagolitic Mass, with the Ancerl recordings a firm endorsement of this. For the full soccer analogy, Lat, there should be 20 in the top flight and 24 in Div 2. If you are lining up a final list that may give you a little leeway.

[Dave2002]

Well, when you think about it, didn't manage a symphony, only got as far a sinfonietta. All we have of a piano sonata is two thirds of it. Only two string quartets ...

O.k, so they and a few operas, Mladi and the Concertino are all masterpieces. Oh, and that mass of his is pretty special, but is that really enough to put him in the premier league?

I did earlier suggest that I'd leave the placing in divisions to others, but I feel that Janacek has more claim to a higher position than Martinu.

There are more Russians not so far mentioned in this list - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...sian_composers

I was going to mention Schedrin, who is still alive, but there are others who presumably can populate lower ranks.

[Petrushka]

Well, when you think about it, didn't manage a symphony, only got as far a sinfonietta. All we have of a piano sonata is two thirds of it. Only two string quartets ...

O.k, so they and a few operas, Mladi and the Concertino are all masterpieces. Oh, and that mass of his is pretty special, but is that really enough to put him in the premier league?

I think it is as it's a question not of quantity but quality. Janacek's music is highly distinctive and very high on quality so yes, I'd put him in the premier league.

[BBMmk2]

I was taken aback by that - and then rendered incandescent at the inclusion of JANACEK as a "Second Divisioner". JANACEK!!!!!! - No better Czech composer EVER!!!!!

Yes, Ferney, I meant to have included those as well!

[gurnemanz]

I would put Janáček in Div One of the world league let alone E. Europe.

Geographically, Vienna is further east than most of Czech Republic.

[Bryn]

I think it is as it's a question not of quantity but quality. Janacek's music is highly distinctive and very high on quality so yes, I'd put him in the premier league.

Heh, heh. You will note that I posed a question but did not offer my answer.

[Conchis]

Division 1: Tchaikovsky, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovich.
Division 2: Borodin, Rimsky-Korskakov, Glinka, Tanayev, Cui, Mussorgsky, Ippolit-Ivanov, etc.

I have a feeling a couple of second divisions could have made the pole-vault into the first division had they been able to 'conquer their demons.'