Who are the Division 2 composers from Russia and other parts of Eastern Europe?

[verismissimo]

Aside from Stravinsky and Mussorgsky, aren't all Russian composers in Division 2 (at best)?

Add underrated Rimsky?

(Seeing The Snow Maiden / ON soon - my first live Rimsky opera.)

[Lat-Literal]

Add underrated Rimsky?

(Seeing The Snow Maiden / ON soon - my first live Rimsky opera.)

Rimsky is very widely regarded as one of the leading composers from the region.

Many thanks to the nine contributors who provided suggestions and/or comment on the "less sung".

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Add underrated Rimsky?
(Seeing The Snow Maiden / ON soon - my first live Rimsky opera.)

Me, too. I've not been a great enthusiast for R-K. Even at his most interesting, he seems to get stuck on a few twiddles on the octotonic scale, as if the sheer "new" sound is enough. His finest "work" is Stravinsky (and from the very critical Igor's memoirs, R-K was a great teacher) who showed just how much wider the road was that his teacher treated simply as a roundabout. And I find R-K's botoxing of Musorgsky's astonishing work barely forgivable.

But the ON Snow Maiden might just change all that - to travel hopefully, and all that ...

[Lat-Literal]

Me, too. I've not been a great enthusiast for R-K. Even at his most interesting, he seems to get stuck on a few twiddles on the octotonic scale, as if the sheer "new" sound is enough. His finest "work" is Stravinsky (and from the very critical Igor's memoirs, R-K was a great teacher) who showed just how much wider the road was that his teacher treated simply as a roundabout. And I find R-K's botoxing of Musorgsky's astonishing work barely forgivable.

But the ON Snow Maiden might just change all that - to travel hopefully, and all that ...

Please close the thread as I have asked.

Most posts are irrelevant to the question.

I am not quite sure what I have done to deserve this.

Perhaps there is a slightly racist etc whiff in some quarters which has determined the thread is not to be treated with equal respect to others?.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Please close the thread as I have asked.
Most posts are irrelevant to the question.
I am not quite sure what I have done to deserve this.
Perhaps there is a slightly racist etc whiff in some quarters which has determined the thread is not to be treated with equal respect to others?.

Oh, Lats - I'm really sorry that you feel that the Thread hasn't gone in the direction that you'd hoped and wanted. But I don't think that that's a reason for the Thread being shut. There is banter - none of it "racist" - as is the case in most Threads; that's part of online conversation, and an essential aspect of the character of this Forum: none of it is intended to be disrespectful either to you or to the Thread you have started. There have been two links to works by little-known Eastern European composers (so that the Thread topic has utilised the opportunities offered by the internet, and specific examples of such work can be shared amongst interested Forumistas; thus avoiding the potential "danger" I suggested earlier of the Thread becoming simply a catalogue of obscure names) - and mention of a forthcoming production of a rarely-performed (in this country) Russian opera - which I hope will be broadcast on R3. I cannot see how you might interpret this as "irrelevant to the question".

Please reconsider your request to close the Thread - it might well "answer" your title question, but in ways you might not have expected. Sincerely -

[BBMmk2]

I think this has been quite a good thread so far. With the usual plethora of Radio 3 Forum banter that goes with it, and yes, I agree with Ferney here, \I can't see any racism in here at all. Just the usual stuff that goes on here. Peace be with you Lat.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Could we use some "Special K"?

Kurtag, Karlowicz and (is he really not mentioned above??) Kodaly.

[french frank]

The Baltic States in general seem to have produced quite a few contemporary (i.e.still living) composers [second thought - maybe not yet Div2!]. And in Poland Moniuszko is held in high esteem.

[Lat-Literal]

Oh, Lats - I'm really sorry that you feel that the Thread hasn't gone in the direction that you'd hoped and wanted. But I don't think that that's a reason for the Thread being shut. There is banter - none of it "racist" - as is the case in most Threads; that's part of online conversation, and an essential aspect of the character of this Forum: none of it is intended to be disrespectful either to you or to the Thread you have started. There have been two links to works by little-known Eastern European composers (so that the Thread topic has utilised the opportunities offered by the internet, and specific examples of such work can be shared amongst interested Forumistas; thus avoiding the potential "danger" I suggested earlier of the Thread becoming simply a catalogue of obscure names) - and mention of a forthcoming production of a rarely-performed (in this country) Russian opera - which I hope will be broadcast on R3. I cannot see how you might interpret this as "irrelevant to the question".

Please reconsider your request to close the Thread - it might well "answer" your title question, but in ways you might not have expected. Sincerely -

One last attempt then.

To clarify:

1. The key distinction here - self-explanatory - is between those composers who are broadly recognised as very substantial - played the most frequently and/or the most highly regarded by the largest numbers - and the rest. That is pretty much a "given" to anyone with an interest, whether they like Shostakovich, Rachmaninov etc or not personally.

2. The other distinction is between those who are a little way behind them in those regards rather than being virtually unknown and not often regarded by large numbers of people. That is more difficult to define, hence the OP, and consequently there is room for considerable flexibility in the suggestions put forward. We already have an interesting range.

3. Interesting though the very obscure can be - and very probably some of those composers are more attractive to many of us than Balakirev, Cui, Lyadov and other fairly well known names - they are not currently of any substantial significance in the pantheon. Who are or were just below the top tier, has their position changed over time and if so why?

4. These bearings have to some extent been established in other regions albeit more informally. The likes of Sessions, Diamond, Harris, Schuman and Piston etc do not have the reach of Copland, Barber and Carter etc but nor are they Harl McDonald or R Nathaniel Dett. Chavez, Moncayo and Guarnieri do not quite have the same reach as Villa Lobos, Piazzolla and Ginastera but they do have more reach than Oswald and arguably Nepomuceno. Similar comments with reference to British composers are included in the post above.

5. Geopolitics are not relevant here. I am not inclined to enter into a long debate on whether all residents of Aberystwyth consider Nottinghamshire to be a central or eastern county. While aerial photography might show it to be not un-central, perspective matters and we in Britain are all Aberystwythians. There is also something to be said about the number of shelves one can have on a limited budget. Classification might not be wholly in line with every perspective and sensitivity but that is hardly the principal objective.

6. As for the Soviet Bloc, most relevant composers were probably born before it existed. Other than in the title of the OP which would need to be several pages long if it were to be precise enough for everyone - even then it would be an impossibility - there is not a hint of "Soviet" about the question. I am surprised that the question should have been asked.

Hope this is helpful.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Could we use some "Special K"?

Kurtag, Karlowicz and (is he really not mentioned above??) Kodaly.

He was in the "second fifteen" in Lats' #40.

Mentioning Kurtag sort-of demonstrates my difficulty with answering Lats' Thread question - in the circles that I usually discuss Music with, he's very much a "Premier League" name.

Zsolt Durko, on the other hand, seems never to be mentioned at all, except when I mention his work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7XrI9juNBw

[Lat-Literal]

I think this has been quite a good thread so far. With the usual plethora of Radio 3 Forum banter that goes with it, and yes, I agree with Ferney here, \I can't see any racism in here at all. Just the usual stuff that goes on here. Peace be with you Lat.

Thanks Bbm.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

1. The key distinction here - self-explanatory - is between those composers who are broadly recognised as very substantial - played the most frequently and/or the most highly regarded by the largest numbers - and the rest. That is pretty much a "given" to anyone with an interest, whether they like Shostakovich, Rachmaninov etc or not personally.

2. The other distinction is between those who are a little way behind them in those regards rather than being virtually unknown and not often regarded by large numbers of people. That is more difficult to define, hence the OP, and consequently there is room for considerable flexibility in the suggestions put forward. We already have an interesting range.

3. Interesting though the very obscure can be - and very probably some of those composers are more attractive to many of us than Balakirev, Cui, Lyadov and other fairly well known names - they are not currently of any substantial significance in the pantheon. Who are or were just below the top tier, has their position changed over time and if so why?

I posted my Durko link before I'd seen this - and, as with the "Music Critics" Thread - I wonder if the Internet is changing the way people accept critical categorisation of composers. Rather than accepting the received opinions of published authors (which most people had to do when the Music itself wasn't available, and when there wasn't time to seek out more obscure journals), people who are so interested can find examples of almost everybody's work on youTube and SoundCloud. Old-established "ratings" are being replaced by more direct contact with the Music - and people are able to (at the very least) find Music that they enjoy in ways that they weren't able to do before the Internet, and (if they are so inclined) able to (re)assess their own individual values as listeners. Moving away from having to depend on the opinions of others (who may themselves have not actually heard the Music they dismiss) to being able to explore our unique response(s) to what we hear is a very healthy development, I think.

Which also works into your

There is also something to be said about the number of shelves one can have on a limited budget. Classification might not be wholly in line with every perspective and sensitivity but that is hardly the principal objective.

YouTube, SoundCloud etc etc helps those of us with very limited budgets to access vast amounts of repertoire that even those with funds which permit them to purchase every new release each month (and the storage facilities to house such purchases) could not access because the recording companies wouldn't touch them.

6. As for the Soviet Bloc, most relevant composers were probably born before it existed. Other than in the title of the OP which would need to be several pages long if it were to be precise enough for everyone - even then it would be an impossibility - there is not a hint of "Soviet" about the question. I am surprised that the question should have been asked.

The Soviet question does lead to possibilities for some composers' neglect in the West, though. The most famous "names" from the Soviet Union were those who had made at least the beginnings of an international reputation before the Stalinist crackdown: Shostakovich's First Symphony appeared in the West - conducted by Bruno Walter in Germany, and Stokowski in America - in 1927, just before Stalin seized full control. Prokofiev was working away from the country of his birth throughout the '20s. Later figures (Schnittke, Gubaidulina and their contemporaries) appeared towards the end of the Soviet period, and were embraced in the West as rebels against the regime's restriction on what was "permissable" in Art.. There is a "missing generation" of Artists, writers, and composers whose work is only just (if at all) beginning to emerge here - Ustvolskaya (for me) the most impressive.

Hope this is helpful.

- and hope that this reply is, too,

[Lat-Literal]

I posted my Durko link before I'd seen this - and, as with the "Music Critics" Thread - I wonder if the Internet is changing the way people accept critical categorisation of composers. Rather than accepting the received opinions of published authors (which most people had to do when the Music itself wasn't available, and when there wasn't time to seek out more obscure journals), people who are so interested can find examples of almost everybody's work on youTube and SoundCloud. Old-established "ratings" are being replaced by more direct contact with the Music - and people are able to (at the very least) find Music that they enjoy in ways that they weren't able to do before the Internet, and (if they are so inclined) able to (re)assess their own individual values as listeners. Moving away from having to depend on the opinions of others (who may themselves have not actually heard the Music they dismiss) to being able to explore our unique response(s) to what we hear is a very healthy development, I think.

Which also works into your


YouTube, SoundCloud etc etc helps those of us with very limited budgets to access vast amounts of repertoire that even those with funds which permit them to purchase every new release each month (and the storage facilities to house such purchases) could not access because the recording companies wouldn't touch them.


The Soviet question does lead to possibilities for some composers' neglect in the West, though. The most famous "names" from the Soviet Union were those who had made at least the beginnings of an international reputation before the Stalinist crackdown: Shostakovich's First Symphony appeared in the West - conducted by Bruno Walter in Germany, and Stokowski in America - in 1927, just before Stalin seized full control. Prokofiev was working away from the country of his birth throughout the '20s. Later figures (Schnittke, Gubaidulina and their contemporaries) appeared towards the end of the Soviet period, and were embraced in the West as rebels against the regime's restriction on what was "permissable" in Art.. There is a "missing generation" of Artists, writers, and composers whose work is only just (if at all) beginning to emerge here - Ustvolskaya (for me) the most impressive.


- and hope that this reply is, too,

Yes it is helpful - thank you. There is something about a line of progression. We are the first generations who (a) have substantial in depth recall of how classical music opened up after the war and in the decades that followed and now also make use of the internet or (b) don't have that recall and have acquired knowledge from the internet as much as acquiring knowledge from anywhere else. The majority of forum members will be in the first category. Young people with an interest will mainly be in the second. I am in the second category not because of my age but rather as a Johnny Come Lately. It was radio and other music that drew me in but it is the internet and the forum that has sustained it.

While individual pursuits can be rewarding, one knows one's limitations. To be where I am is to encounter all sorts of questions that arise from what is being learned. These are haphazard and vary according to region, period and availability of information. There is an automatic assumption that music communities know more. That assumption is normally accurate. Consequently, the instinct is to seek the comment of "elders" not that they are all necessarily older to help structure the thinking on the basis of knowledgeable broad-based perspectives. It is also to introduce some newer ideas or thinking around what may not have been widely questioned in the past. It is hoped that can be mutually rewarding.

Teamsaint mentioned "Unsung Composers". It was only on discovering that website last week that I realised it was reasonably in line with my approaches to self-education. I am also aware of another forum which I won't name which has regular polls of favourite composers in this or that category. That can be an interesting forum but there is only so much to be gained by hearing that 25% more people prefer Tchaikovsky to Borodin. This thread is not a popularity poll. It is intended to reside between those composers whose individual work is usually appreciated in breadth (something I currently lack) as well as depth and the ones who are found simply in serendipity and may at times lead to additional listening.

In that space it is interesting actually to see the names of composers who may not have arisen so frequently in pre forum and internet days gathering a fan base. One senses it. For example, Čiurlionis, Gubaidulina and Martinu might not have been uppermost in minds in earlier decades. The top tier standing of Mahler and especially Bruckner has probably been substantially enhanced in the internet age and the same might well be true of many others - Villa Lobos, Nielsen, Kalinnikov, Braga Santos, Ives etc with varying degrees of good reason. As you imply, this is probably the proverbial good thing but it does then lead to questions about why apparently huge figures in the past are now comparatively overlooked.

I accept that a lot of "famous" names include those who escaped from the Stalinist crackdown. It might also be that the reason for the decline of others is that they tied their colours to the mast of nationalism as it was in history defined. Without question, such considerations do represent a good start and given the history the trends long pre-date the internet age. However, it will come as no surprise in view of my recent posts that I have been reading about Jewish Dutch composers. Several of the leading ones were not able to escape persecution from the Nazis and perished, thereby not being able to establish a long-term foothold in the international psyche. Interestingly, some are now staring to emerge and that emergence is largely internet based. But when it comes to the influence of nationalism and persecution more broadly, I am not sure that it is a very precise science.

The music of Sgambati may have suffered from his personal positioning. The music of Respighi didn't suffer in that way. Which opens the door to a rather more basic set of questions that while bordering on the trite could nevertheless be revealing. For example, is it that some of the music from Russia and countries close to it is simply heard as old fashioned or boring in the 21st Century? Or even could it be that the difficulty of a lot of the names of those composers to English minds in itself makes them less accessible?

[Lat-Literal]

.....Matyushin?, Gretchaninov?, Koreshchenko?, Berezovsky?, Paderewski?, Porumbescu?, Goldmark?, Szell?, Erkin?, Rey?

Etc!......in addition to earlier names named.

Also:

Is there any evidence to suggest that Russian nationalism from the mid 1800s onwards was such that the music was especially formulaic, hence comparatively indistinct?

[cloughie]

Add underrated Rimsky?

(Seeing The Snow Maiden / ON soon - my first live Rimsky opera.)

I don't know if it fits the underrated tag but Antar is a long -term favourite of mine.