Another orchestral layout?

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  • Jasmine Bassett
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 50

    Another orchestral layout?

    Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla seems to be starting to make her mark experimenting in Birmingham. Last Sunday's concert included one or two surprises including an orchestral layout for the Mozart Piano Concerto which I had never seen before.

    The completely lidless piano was placed with the keyboard parallel to the front of the stage so the soloist was seated with his back to the audience. The body of the piano completely divided the strings with the Firsts, Cellos and Basses on the left and the Violas and Seconds on the right. The end of the piano was almost directly in front of the woodwind with enough space for the conductor to stand more or less in front of the oboe. (Nothing too unusual with that I hear you thinking). But the conductor stood facing the pianist and the audience with her back to the woodwind.

    This actually seemed to work very well providing eye contact for the conductor with both the strings and the pianist. With a minimal turn to the right the conductor also had good contact with the wind players. The pianist was also able to see the wind players. I'm not sure it works so well for anyone in the main body of the audience wanting to "see" the pianist.

    In over forty years of concert going and viewing this is a new one on me - does anyone know if this is new, an old idea resurrected or common in other parts of the world?

    I know she has not been with the orchestra long but differences are already beginning to show. The whole concert, Haydn 31, Mozart PC 27 and Beethoven 5 was played almost without vibrato and there was a great emphasis on dynamics with some occasionally very quiet playing from the strings.

    The concert is repeated on Thursday afternoon and is being recorded for that other Classical music radio station. I wonder if the experiment will be repeated with the microphones present?
  • Bryn
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 24688

    #2
    Originally posted by Jasmine Bassett View Post
    Mirga Grazinyte-Tyla seems to be starting to make her mark experimenting in Birmingham. Last Sunday's concert included one or two surprises including an orchestral layout for the Mozart Piano Concerto which I had never seen before.

    The completely lidless piano was placed with the keyboard parallel to the front of the stage so the soloist was seated with his back to the audience. The body of the piano completely divided the strings with the Firsts, Cellos and Basses on the left and the Violas and Seconds on the right. The end of the piano was almost directly in front of the woodwind with enough space for the conductor to stand more or less in front of the oboe. (Nothing too unusual with that I hear you thinking). But the conductor stood facing the pianist and the audience with her back to the woodwind.

    This actually seemed to work very well providing eye contact for the conductor with both the strings and the pianist. With a minimal turn to the right the conductor also had good contact with the wind players. The pianist was also able to see the wind players. I'm not sure it works so well for anyone in the main body of the audience wanting to "see" the pianist.

    In over forty years of concert going and viewing this is a new one on me - does anyone know if this is new, an old idea resurrected or common in other parts of the world?

    I know she has not been with the orchestra long but differences are already beginning to show. The whole concert, Haydn 31, Mozart PC 27 and Beethoven 5 was played almost without vibrato and there was a great emphasis on dynamics with some occasionally very quiet playing from the strings.

    The concert is repeated on Thursday afternoon and is being recorded for that other Classical music radio station. I wonder if the experiment will be repeated with the microphones present?
    This is an approach also adopted by Ronald Brautigam, Daniel Barenboim and others in recent years.

    Comment

    • CallMePaul
      Full Member
      • Jan 2014
      • 789

      #3
      On a related issue, I havce tried for some time to find out when the currently preferred orchestral layout with massed violins to the conductor's (and audience's) left more or less superceded the layout with first and second violins on opposite sides of the platform. Does anyone know when this happened and if any particulat conductor was responsible?

      Comment

      • ferneyhoughgeliebte
        Gone fishin'
        • Sep 2011
        • 30163

        #4
        Originally posted by CallMePaul View Post
        On a related issue, I havce tried for some time to find out when the currently preferred orchestral layout with massed violins to the conductor's (and audience's) left more or less superceded the layout with first and second violins on opposite sides of the platform. Does anyone know when this happened and if any particulat conductor was responsible?
        I seem to "remember" that Stokowski was one of the first, if not the instigator of this - to ensure a left-to-right "spread" from highest to lowest strings (curiously enough, "back-to-front" from keyboard layout).

        But I also wonder how "universal" the stereophonically-separated violins was in the first place. Plenty of evidence to suggest that it was widespread in Austro-German orchestras for concerts - but not the case in orchestra pits in Opera houses.

        Back to the OP, it does seem odd (if I've understood correctly) for the conductor to have her back to the woodwinds she is conducting - the advantage of conductor/pianist eye-contact is clear; but I would have thunk that the disadvantages outweigh this???
        [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

        Comment

        • zola
          Full Member
          • May 2011
          • 656

          #5
          Originally posted by Bryn View Post
          This is an approach also adopted by Ronald Brautigam, Daniel Barenboim and others in recent years.
          But that is normally when the pianist is directing the orchestra from the keyboard isn't it ? As with Leif Ove Andsdnes in his Beethoven piano concerto "journey" ? I don't recall seeing it with a conductor also involved.

          Comment

          • ferneyhoughgeliebte
            Gone fishin'
            • Sep 2011
            • 30163

            #6
            Originally posted by zola View Post
            But that is normally when the pianist is directing the orchestra from the keyboard isn't it ? As with Leif Ove Andsdnes in his Beethoven piano concerto "journey" ? I don't recall seeing it with a conductor also involved.
            I thought that, but wasn't sure if Brautigam directs as well as playing. (He doesn't on his Mozza recordings.)
            [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

            Comment

            • Richard Barrett
              Guest
              • Jan 2016
              • 6259

              #7
              Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
              (curiously enough, "back-to-front" from keyboard layout)
              ... the reason being that violins on the conductor's right play with their instruments facing away from the audience and thus ever so slightly attenuated in sound, which is why in the older layout the first violins are always on his/her left (and why Mahler occasionally has firsts silent and seconds divided).

              Comment

              • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                Gone fishin'
                • Sep 2011
                • 30163

                #8
                Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
                ... the reason being that violins on the conductor's right play with their instruments facing away from the audience and thus ever so slightly attenuated in sound, which is why in the older layout the first violins are always on his/her left (and why Mahler occasionally has firsts silent and seconds divided).
                <doh> Of course!
                [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                Comment

                • Barbirollians
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 11669

                  #9
                  Is the massed violins still dominant in the usual layout . It certainly seemed to me when I first started going to concerts in the 1980s but there are more and more conductors it seems dividing their violins - Edward Gardner did last week with the Bergen PO and a number of others have at recent concerts in Sheffield . Nelsons and the CBSO stuck to the massed violins in their Bruckner concert .

                  Comment

                  • ardcarp
                    Late member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 11102

                    #10
                    The layout in Post #1 is certainly unusual...but I'm all in favour of trying new layouts to see which work best. When I was a kid it was still quite common for the 2nd violins to be on the conductor's RHS. To have cellos there instead was thought to be a bit new-fangled. I must say that I personally prefer cellos on the RHS for the obvious reason given in Post #7 that 2nd violins (which should not be composed of people 'playing 2nd fiddle'!) speak more directly into the concert hall in their now established position.

                    BTW was the CBSO Mozart Piano Concert done with reduced forces?

                    Comment

                    • Eine Alpensinfonie
                      Host
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 20570

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Barbirollians View Post
                      Is the massed violins still dominant in the usual layout . It certainly seemed to me when I first started going to concerts in the 1980s but there are more and more conductors it seems dividing their violins - Edward Gardner did last week with the Bergen PO and a number of others have at recent concerts in Sheffield . Nelsons and the CBSO stuck to the massed violins in their Bruckner concert .
                      Mark Elder divides the violins of the Hallé Orchestra, but when they played Strauss's Alpine Symphony with the BBC Philharmonic, they were all back on the left of the platform.
                      Last edited by Eine Alpensinfonie; 31-01-17, 18:17.

                      Comment

                      • Jasmine Bassett
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 50

                        #12
                        The conductor was effectively right next to the woodwind and could quite easily turn through 45 degrees or so to face them and provide encouragement when needed. From the reaction of the conductor and soloist after the performance they both seem to have thoroughly enjoyed themselves. There were a few reactions from the conductor to the pianist at a particular turns of phrase, but only being able to see his back it would be interesting to know if those reactions were returned.

                        The forces for both the Haydn and the Mozart were not significantly downsized although more strings were there for the Beethoven in the second half.

                        The conductor made a short speech to the audience at the end of the concert and amongst other things mentioned the afternoon's "experiments", so she's obviously trying to avoid the status quo.

                        Comment

                        • Zucchini
                          Guest
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 917

                          #13
                          I find Francesco Piemontesi's Mozart wonderful; absolutely immaculate & he would certainly have approved or suggested the layout of forces.

                          Originally posted by Jasmine Bassett View Post
                          The conductor made a short speech to the audience at the end of the concert and amongst other things mentioned the afternoon's "experiments", so she's obviously trying to avoid the status quo.
                          I'm also delighted that she put in the effort to give 4 schools concerts today and yesterday for 8,000 11-14 year olds. If anyone can get the attention of young ones (i.e. those without bus passes.), I reckon it's the Magical Mirga.

                          (Cost was £60,000 - ugh - but many personal contributions
                          )

                          Comment

                          • Pabmusic
                            Full Member
                            • May 2011
                            • 5537

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ardcarp View Post
                            The layout in Post #1 is certainly unusual...but I'm all in favour of trying new layouts to see which work best. When I was a kid it was still quite common for the 2nd violins to be on the conductor's RHS. To have cellos there instead was thought to be a bit new-fangled. I must say that I personally prefer cellos on the RHS for the obvious reason given in Post #7 that 2nd violins (which should not be composed of people 'playing 2nd fiddle'!) speak more directly into the concert hall in their now established position.

                            BTW was the CBSO Mozart Piano Concert done with reduced forces?
                            For what it's worth, I always had 2nds on the right.

                            The issue about 2nds sounding different can be an advantage. It needs an extra desk of 2nds over 1sts for balance, and you now have 2nds that are subtly different in quality. Cellos now throw their sound more directly into the audience, and as my preferred layout had violas next to the 1sts, those shy things now had their sound holes more towards ds the audience.

                            Comment

                            • Eine Alpensinfonie
                              Host
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 20570

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Zucchini View Post

                              I'm also delighted that she put in the effort to give 4 schools concerts today and yesterday for 8,000 11-14 year olds.

                              Comment

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