Bernard Haitink - the last remaining 'grand master’?

[cloughie]

Hence the question mark in the thread title.

I became acquainted with Blomstedt’s art about 26 years ago with his San Fransisco Nielsen cycle, which still more than holds its own today. I also like his Sibelius cycle which I only bought a couple of years ago (it doesn’t get mention on these boards, or anywhere else for that matter). His Gewandhaus Bruckner is highly praised - I only have symphony #3 (which one of the very best out there) because the cycle is a bit expensive and I expect it to drop in price significantly when it becomes more widely available. If it doesn’t, I’ll just have to stump-up.

Sadly, I know little else. Is anyone who is more familiar with maestro Blomstedt, willing and able to briefly make the case for him?

His Richard Strauss is also very good - not only the SFSO recordings on Decca but also earlier on Denon really good Heldenleben and Also Sprach with the DSO. Also availble as a download on Amazon for £6.59 is his Dresden Schubert Symphony cycle.

[gurnemanz]

[QUOTE=makropulos;602145
Plenty of over 80s still active as conductors, though Haitink is certainly one of the most venerable. Skrowacewski, Blomstedt, Gielen (retired), von Dohnányi, Rozhdestvensky - and the likes of Inbal, Macal and Zinman are now over 80 too.[/QUOTE]

I had forgotten that Rozhdestvensky (85) was still active. Recent review here. Surely a master.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

One thing - listen as I might, I can't hear a cymbal in the 7 adagio climax.

It's not Bruckner's original idea - the Cymbal and triangle were added (possibly in Bruckner's handwriting - possibly not) at the suggestion of the Schalk brothers before the premiere, and was included in that performance by the conductor, Nikisch. Bruckner wrote six question marks over the Cymbal/Triangle addition, but these (or, possibly, the cymbal and triangle parts themselves; writers differ in their statements, and I can't find an image of the page online) are crossed out and "gilt nicht" written next to them - possibly by Bruckner. So Blomstedt sticks to Bruckner's first thoughts.

[teamsaint]

Many marvellous experiences of Haitink, starting with the Symphonie fantastique at the Proms on 2 September 1970, and Mahler 3 the next year. One favourite concert from a couple of years later comprised: Elgar In the South, Mozart scenes from Entführung, VW Symphony No. 4. Tremendous.

Plenty of over 80s still active as conductors, though Haitink is certainly one of the most venerable. Skrowacewski, Blomstedt, Gielen (retired), von Dohnányi, Rozhdestvensky - and the likes of Inbal, Macal and Zinman are now over 80 too.

In any other industry, we might be complaining about consequent lack of opportunities for younger members of the profession.

( Just as a conversation point,obviously.....)

[Bryn]

Hence the question mark in the thread title.

I became acquainted with Blomstedt’s art about 26 years ago with his San Fransisco Nielsen cycle, which still more than holds its own today. I also like his Sibelius cycle which I only bought a couple of years ago (it doesn’t get mention on these boards, or anywhere else for that matter). His Gewandhaus Bruckner is highly praised - I only have symphony #3 (which one of the very best out there) because the cycle is a bit expensive and I expect it to drop in price significantly when it becomes more widely available. If it doesn’t, I’ll just have to stump-up.

Sadly, I know little else. Is anyone who is more familiar with maestro Blomstedt, willing and able to briefly make the case for him?

Ahem. Was it not recommendations on these very boards that were your fillip?

[Richard Tarleton]

It's not Bruckner's original idea - the Cymbal and triangle were added (possibly in Bruckner's handwriting - possibly not) at the suggestion of the Schalk brothers before the premiere, and was included in that performance by the conductor, Nikisch. Bruckner wrote six question marks over the Cymbal/Triangle addition, but these (or, possibly, the cymbal and triangle parts themselves; writers differ in their statements, and I can't find an image of the page online) are crossed out and "gilt nicht" written next to them - possibly by Bruckner. So Blomstedt sticks to Bruckner's first thoughts.

Thanks ferney - I knew the broad outline of this but not the detail - do others in the modern age stick to this? Klemperer was famous for doing so - as it happens his was the first performance of 7 I heard on LP - and was to have been my first live . I don't think I've heard another performance without the cymbals/triangle.

I remember a particularly mighty cymbal clash in the Haitink/Chicago SO performance of 7 at the RFH on 24/9/2009 - memorable not least because it came from the CSO's unfeasibly tiny percussionist - Cynthia Yeh? I think Pet, and possibly Alison, were at this performance, my top 7th, looking back over quite a few.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

In any other industry, we might be complaining about consequent lack of opportunities for younger members of the profession.

Ah, but at that age they're all part-timers, anyway. It's like working for B&Q - but better paid.

[Beef Oven!]

Ahem. Was it not recommendations on these very boards that were your fillip?

I should make it clearer. Blomstedt’s Sibelius came up when we were discussing Sibelius cycles. It hadn’t been mentioned before that and hasn’t been mentioned since - and we talk often about Sibelius!

For example, he didn’t get mention in our very recent discussions of Tapiola. But if you can re-apply your forensic skills and find other references, I’m more than happy to be proved wrong.

[teamsaint]

Ah, but at that age they're all part-timers, anyway. It's like working for B&Q - but better paid.

I know, but it still comes out of the available revenue, and opportunities.

But yes, like B and Q, it often means evening shifts.

Edit: " At that age ?"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I know, but it still comes out of the available revenue, and opportunities.

Indeed - as does the salaries of the retired staff from the (admittedly much larger) B&Q revenues. And, as many in the audiences are attracted to concerts by personalities (with the added frisson of the concert possibly being the artists' last) rather than repertoire, the revenue comes in no small part from the old codgers rather than those seeking work opportunities.

But yes, like B and Q, it often means evening shifts.

Edit: " At that age ?"

???

[HighlandDougie]

I was reading this thread when an e-mail from the Concertgebouw popped into my inbox telling me that the great man is celebrating 60 years of conducting the orchestra with concerts of Debussy's Prélude à l'Après-midi d'un Faune, Debussy's Nocturnes and Bruckner's 7th on 17th, 18th and 19th of February, with the last of these being broadcast live by Dutch Radio 4 at 13.15 GMT, should anyone be interested.

[oddoneout]

And for a different perspective.....
'Ugly little man isn't he, is he any good?'
The context - many years ago, Dutch mother in law with no interest in/knowledge of music, seeing his picture on the TV. Even my father in law(also Dutch), also not musically inclined, looked surprised. OH and I decided to change the subject.

[jayne lee wilson]

Thanks ferney - I knew the broad outline of this but not the detail - do others in the modern age stick to this? Klemperer was famous for doing so - as it happens his was the first performance of 7 I heard on LP - and was to have been my first live . I don't think I've heard another performance without the cymbals/triangle.

I remember a particularly mighty cymbal clash in the Haitink/Chicago SO performance of 7 at the RFH on 24/9/2009 - memorable not least because it came from the CSO's unfeasibly tiny percussionist - Cynthia Yeh? I think Pet, and possibly Alison, were at this performance, my top 7th, looking back over quite a few.

This is simply the difference between Haas (excludes percussion i.e timps, triangle, cymbals)) and Nowak, who includes them. All of Haitink's 7ths are Nowak and so include percussion. Looking through Berky, there are many recordings of both, but there appears some tendency to use Nowak more frequently of late.

The use of it in the 8th is authentic of course, and luckily the 7th is without much textual controversy; but the question of the percussion is vexing because of its rarity in Bruckner, and Schalk and Loewe's addition of it to their editions of Symphonies 4 and 5. Schalk's heavily-cut 5th (with cymbals and triangle in the finale coda, as if you needed them) is definitely best forgotten, but you don't travel far through Knappertsbusch country before being regularly startled by such things, timpani rolls & crescendi in the 4th especially! They're exciting, yes, but it's hard to avoid the sense of pelion-upon-ossa sensationalising vulgarity about them. Hardly surprising if Haas saw them as superfluous Schalkisms.

Once you get the Knappertsbusch bug though... you'll take any of this, to hear what he can do.

[Richard Tarleton]

Many thanks jayne, as ever

I have yet to sample Kna's Bruckner - have his Wagner, of course.....

[richardfinegold]

Thanks ferney - I knew the broad outline of this but not the detail - do others in the modern age stick to this? Klemperer was famous for doing so - as it happens his was the first performance of 7 I heard on LP - and was to have been my first live . I don't think I've heard another performance without the cymbals/triangle.

I remember a particularly mighty cymbal clash in the Haitink/Chicago SO performance of 7 at the RFH on 24/9/2009 - memorable not least because it came from the CSO's unfeasibly tiny percussionist - Cynthia Yeh? I think Pet, and possibly Alison, were at this performance, my top 7th, looking back over quite a few.

Cynthia Yeh it is. Her husband Bruce was the First Chair Clarinet.