Why did a small number of 20th Century composers produce large numbers of symphonies?

[Boilk]

...Is there anything else, for example, that Segarstam, Brian, Hovhaness, Cowell etc etc etc have in common?

There is overlap between Cowell and Hovhaness (who apparently knew each other and worked in New York). At least for a while, they both rejected Americana and looked to the east, and had a rather flexible view of what a symphony could be. Some kind of Gebrauchmusik perhaps?

Having surveyed the Hovhaness symphonies on Delos and Naxos labels, the later ones seem more Western and backward looking, but the earlier ones (e.g. 9, 15, 17 and 19) are overtly eastern, almost like Indian and (in the case of the haunting No.17) Gagaku music written for Western ensembles. For its time (1950s/60s) it's pretty avant garde stuff, and probably some of the music that paved the way for American Minimalism in the late 60s/early 70s. He had apparently lived and studied in India and Japan, so it was no mere vulgar 'Chinoiserie'.

Regarding Derek Bourgeois, I like the title of his Symphony No.52, "The Halfway". His first six symphonies can be heard on YouTube. The 'Hock' movement from his Wine Symphony is just splendid (once recorded for Decca by the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble).

[Richard Barrett]

(in the case of the haunting No.17) Gagaku music written for Western ensembles.

That sounds like something I need to listen to as soon as possible!

I was responsible for copying some of the parts of Bourgeois's Wine Symphony, it struck me as somewhat corked.

[Lat-Literal]

There is overlap between Cowell and Hovhaness (who apparently knew each other and worked in New York). At least for a while, they both rejected Americana and looked to the east, and had a rather flexible view of what a symphony could be. Some kind of Gebrauchmusik perhaps?

Having surveyed the Hovhaness symphonies on Delos and Naxos labels, the later ones seem more Western and backward looking, but the earlier ones (e.g. 9, 15, 17 and 19) are overtly eastern, almost like Indian and (in the case of the haunting No.17) Gagaku music written for Western ensembles. For its time (1950s/60s) it's pretty avant garde stuff, and probably some of the music that paved the way for American Minimalism in the late 60s/early 70s. He had apparently lived and studied in India and Japan, so it was no mere vulgar 'Chinoiserie'.

Regarding Derek Bourgeois, I like the title of his Symphony No.52, "The Halfway". His first six symphonies can be heard on YouTube. The 'Hock' movement from his Wine Symphony is just splendid (once recorded for Decca by the Philip Jones Brass Ensemble).

Well, yes, that is very helpful, Boilk. Hovhaness 2 - Mysterious Mountain - might suggest otherwise to a degree. Its aspects of minimalism pre-dated what we came to regard as minimalism but it is not especially avant-garde plus there are some approximate references to RVW. Still, it is the later work that tends towards Americana and/or the pastoral.

46 - To the Green Mountains, 50 - Mount St Helen's, 60 - To the Appalachain Mountains, 63 - Loon Lake, 66 - Hymn to Glacier Peak etc. Those contrast significantly with 17 and 19 - Vishnu (Indian/Persian?) and 21 Etchmadzin - Armenian and given his own history possibly a pivotal point in "coming home" for 22 is the very American City of Light. But then 24 - Majnun isn't quite back there and 31 has to my ear a bit of everything. Certainly I see similarities between him and Cowell. I didn't know they knew each other. "Gebrauchmusik" suggests composing for the here and now, even populism perhaps. I am not sure what that says about their longer-term objectives but I don't think it necessarily precludes them.

[Lat-Literal]

I think that circumstance plays a primary role. In the 18th century the majority of composers, on the continent at least, were employed by the aristocracy and therefore the writing of symphonies and orchestral music was influenced by their employers' tastes and requirements. With Beethoven and the rise of the public concert things really changed and in the 19th & early 20th century the symphony became a challenge for those composers who took up the option, and a public statement, a chance to put their orchestral art on display, this combined with a pronounced shift towards composers earning money directly from their art, resulted in composers being more conservative in their symphonic output. Also instrumental development allowed for a widening of possibilities within the various composition genres.
Since the 1920/30s of course the explosion in the diversification of opportunities for composers. and changes in society/music production, allows composers a certain freedom to try their hand more readily at every possible musical genre and to compose greater numbers of works in a specific genre that they feel suits their mode of expression. Symphonically of course, the continued changes in taste of the listening public and the sheer variety of opportunity to listen, has flooded 'the market' and resulted once more in a retreat from symphonic composition by many composers, except those who have made their mark in symphonic music, or those who are able by circumstance, or by those with a devotion & interest to continue to compose symphonic music.

I'll stop waffling now!!!

Not waffle.

This is very helpful in setting the broader context.

I feel that I have already learnt a lot from it.

Thank you!

[Richard Barrett]

the earlier ones (e.g. 9, 15, 17 and 19) are overtly eastern, almost like Indian and (in the case of the haunting No.17) Gagaku music written for Western ensembles

I enjoyed listening to this one. It's very broad-brushstroke stuff of course, the kind of orchestral writing that would be easy to produce in large quantities. When it was over, Youtube served up no.22 "City of Light" which went too far for me in the direction of bland "new age" consonance. Looking forward however to exploring further.

[Boilk]

I enjoyed listening to this one. It's very broad-brushstroke stuff of course, the kind of orchestral writing that would be easy to produce in large quantities. When it was over, Youtube served up no.22 "City of Light" which went too far for me in the direction of bland "new age" consonance. Looking forward however to exploring further.

No.17 is subtitled Symphony for Metal Orchestra I think, though perhaps Fourth Construction In Metal might have garnered it wider scrutiny!

The most intriguing one for me has always been Symphony No.19, a single-movement 1966 work entitled 'Vishnu'. It is archipalego-like, with a fair number of ad libitum sections sounding almost like conduits as we proceed from one episode to another. And since he started with his ad libitum going back to the mid 1940s it's probably not Polish mimickry! One of the most memorable American symphonies for me, certainly from a sonoristic view.

[Richard Barrett]

Re Symphony no.19: it comes over to me like a series of sketches, some very striking and as you say memorable, which however (despite some recurring thematic material) don't add up into a structure that's more than the sum of its parts. In some passages the ad lib unsynchronised repetition of motifs gets too predictable for my liking. There's no doubt that he had a highly individual way with timbre and orchestration (some moments remind me of Scelsi's orchestral music, particularly Aion - I wonder whether they were aware of each other's work) but personally I would like it to be structurally tighter and less one-dimensional.

[Boilk]

There's no doubt that he had a highly individual way with timbre and orchestration ... but personally I would like it to be structurally tighter and less one-dimensional.

I know what you mean. I think Hovhaness's shifting approach to form (just as with harmony and counterpoint) may have depended largely upon which ethnic hat he was wearing. Some of his music of the '60s (when he appears to have spent a few years in Hawaii and Japan) has been likened to an "unfurling scroll" rather than the "photographic print" of much Western classical music. In that respect it is more faithfully Oriental than Occidental I guess.

[Suffolkcoastal]

I think you are about right in your estimation. When listening to most Hovhaness symphonies you must try to forget entirely about the symphony in its normal western format. The 'unfurling scroll' is quite a good description of Hovhaness's symphonic method.