Prokofiev 'Other' Symphonies

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wasn't aware that there was a question.

[Dave2002]

I wasn't aware that there was a question.

Msg 29 attempts to imply one.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Msg 29 attempts to imply one.

It does, indeed - but neglects to identify in which post this "implied question" that Pet is stated (admittedly, somewhat apologetically) as having got wrong appears.

[Bryn]

Prokofiev, on hearing the premiere, considered this symphony a failure ("Neither I nor the audience understood anything in it"). For many years he intended to revise it, recasting it in three movements, but never got around to it.

Are you able to expand on the context of that quote? My understanding is that the premier was a bit of a rushed job with the composer only completed it a couple of weeks beforehand. He is said to have aimed at making it a work for connoisseurs of new music reflecting the industrial fashion of the time (think of Antheil's Ballet Mécanique, Mosolov's Zavod, etc., or Prokofiev's own Pas d'acier. A second, better prepared, performance of the 2nd was rather better received. Christopher Rouse considers it Prokofiev's best and Bruce Turlish writes thus:

"Symphony No. 2: This symphony is Prokofiev's least known and one of his most inventive. He wanted this work to be a symphony composed in a modernistic vein, a symphony "compounded of iron and steel," as he put it, and he succeeded brilliantly. Cast in two movements, an Allegro ben articulato and a Theme with variations, this symphony is the nearest Prokofiev came to rivaling what Stravinsky achieved in the Rites of Spring. Prokofiev's use of martial, driving rhythm in the first movement is exhilarating, yet a strong melodic line runs through this music also; the overall effect, while somewhat harsh, is extremely exciting. The second movement opens with a theme that is, without question, one of Prokofiev's most inspired and lyrically tender; the variations that follow are imaginative and exciting, the symphony ending with a return of the contemplative variation theme in a manner that is quite poignant. While it is true that certain passages in this symphony have a balletic feel to them, the strength of the melodic invention is so high that the piece remains consistently fascinating. This work has the potential to be much more popular than it currently is with the concert- going public; I suspect a ballet set to this music could be a crowd-pleaser and would allow the music to become better known."

[Bryn]

Just because it's so loud?

Well the first movement's good and loud (and brash) but the theme that opens the second movement is decidedly lyrical and not at all brash. I took to the work like a duck to water on first encounter.

[Richard Barrett]

the theme that opens the second movement is decidedly lyrical and not at all brash

Well quite. And I can't see how this work could have been improved by the addition of another movement (any more than with the Beethoven sonata on which it's modelled).

[Richard Barrett]

there are some scoring issues in the 1st movement

What are you referring to here? There's a rather interesting "effect" in the Ozawa recording where the piano in its toccata-like passages is mixed to the fore, but clearly Ozawa couldn't hear it so well in one of these stretches because it's consistently slightly behind the beat, in a way it would be almost impossible to reproduce deliberately! - having first got to know the piece through this recording I was somewhat disappointed to look at the score and see that this was a mistake, rather than a weird bit of orchestration.

[rauschwerk]

Are you able to expand on the context of that quote?

It was in a letter the composer wrote to Derzhanovsky, editor of Muzyka. He went on, "It was too thickly woven. There were too many layers of counterpoint which degenerated into mere figuration." Robert Layton considers that this is 'perhaps too harsh'.

As for recasting the piece in three movements, who can say what the composer had in mind?

[richardfinegold]

Gave 3 a spin a few days ago, Leinsdorf/Boston on Testament. I liked it better more than I had in the past, and will trot it out again. The recording isn't particularly stellar--very two dimensional with constricted sound stage despite being early stereo

[Daniel]

Gave 3 a spin a few days ago, Leinsdorf/Boston on Testament. I liked it better more than I had in the past, and will trot it out again. The recording isn't particularly stellar--very two dimensional with constricted sound stage despite being early stereo

FWIW I like the 3rd symphony, there's moment in the 3rd movt where lower strings are marching troll-like with eerie string slides going on over the top, which I find very memorable (in the Jaarvi, SNO, Chandos recording at least). And I like the way the music works up to a head of steam in the last movt and closes with such bone shattering chords.

I know and like symphonies 1, 2, 5 and 6 as well, to differing degrees, the spirit of Tchaikovsky hovers over no.5, I find, though one hears quite a few influences in these symphonies I think (not least the 1st!)
An arbitrary point that occurs is that at times, Prokofiev seems almost to smear brass themes across the music, like lipstick across a face - there's a nice example early in the last variation of the 2nd symphony, but elsewhere too - anyway striking stuff.

[Dave2002]

Ok. I'm putting 2,3,4 back on to my todo list for the next few weeks.
I'll also revisit Shostakovich 2 and 3.

[Bryn]

I find Shostakovich 2 and 3 rather more problematic, though there was a rather good performance of 2, conducted by Mark Elder, on a BBCMM cover disc:

[richardfinegold]

I find Shostakovich 2 and 3 rather more problematic, though there was a rather good performance of 2, conducted by Mark Elder, on a BBCMM cover disc:

Does one need to purchase a Land Rover in order to play this disc

[Richard Barrett]

I find Shostakovich 2 and 3 rather more problematic

I find both really quite interesting until the closing chorus begins.

[rauschwerk]

If this thread is going to go OT, perhaps it would be interesting to consider Prokofiev's 'other' piano sonatas. Apart from the 'war trilogy' (6, 7 & 8) these nine works are remarkably little known, at least in the West. The fourth sonata (curiously subtitled 'From Old Notebooks') is well worth hearing in the recording by Richter. Does anyone here have any recommendations? I once got the whole lot out of my local library and tried to play bits of them, but they were quite beyond me.