'Classical music is too exclusive'

[french frank]

Interesting point made at the Radio 3 'diversity' conference. It's a bit sloppily written ('Classical music 'excludes' composers from minorities') where 'classical music' is the shorthand for the classical music industry, administrators, bigwigs &c. - even audiences sometimes.

The more interesting point made by Eleanor Alberga is that when she gets a commission it's often with 'a "racial agenda" such as slavery' or about jazz "which I know nothing about". She sees herself as a composer in the classical tradition whereas others see her as a 'black composer'. Not all artists from racial/ethnic minorities want to be campaigning for equality all the time: they just want to be treated equally.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The more interesting point made by Eleanor Alberga is that when she gets a commission it's often with 'a "racial agenda" such as slavery' or about jazz "which I know nothing about". She sees herself as a composer in the classical tradition whereas others see her as a 'black composer'. Not all artists from racial/ethnic minorities want to be campaigning for equality all the time: they just want to be treated equally.

There's so much presumed racial division in music. In popular music, there has been - and still is - much reference to "black music", with a presumption that there's one kind of music for black people and another kind for white people. This is referred to in the musical Showboat, written in the 1920s, but it's still with us today. If it's a short-cut way of saying the music is influenced by Afro-Caribbean music, that is reasonable, but if often comes across as a permanent division.

[french frank]

There's so much presumed racial division in music. In popular music, there has been - and still is - much reference to "black music", with a presumption that there's one kind of music for black people and another kind for white people. This is referred to in the musical Showboat, written in the 1920s, but it's still with us today. If it's a short-cut way of saying the music is influenced by Afro-Caribbean music, that is reasonable, but if often comes across as a permanent division.

Quite true (and in the clip, Eleanor Alberga said she was 'influenced by African American music'. That's no different to English composers being influenced by English folk music, which most people would see as something that both distinguished and enriched the music.

I can see that it's a real problem where those who are in a position to break down these particular 'barriers' are too blinkered to see them. And it's a very subtle difference between that and the potential concert-goers/listeners talking about perceived barriers. 'Do it our way/Let us do it our way or we shall feel excluded.'

[oddoneout]

She said just 6% of commissioned works that were submitted for the 2015 British Composer Awards came from black or minority ethnic (BAME) composers.
Research from 2013 showed that in 90% of cases, composers were commissioned by artistic directors or through other personal networks, rather than through open processes.

A couple of thoughts from the above.
What relationship does the 6% have to the proportion of BAME composers as a group? It is a small figure yes, but taken out of context is meaningless.
While it may well be the case that networking and 'who you know' disadvantages BAME composers more than others, it could be argued that it isn't a satisfactory situation for anyone. The best person for a given commission may miss out through not being on the radar and the listening public may miss out through limitation of potential musical offerings(so to speak).
As always in such cases my concern is that a piecemeal approach - targeting certain groups - doesn't address the core issue of equality of opportunity and in itself can cause adverse bias and disadvantage. A group which ticks the appropriate box or can shout louder than another can gain priority over other possibly equally deserving groups.
Radio 3, by featuring 'unjustly neglected composers' runs into difficulties as far as I'm concerned by using that phrase, however worthy the aim of such an exercise. Why include 'unjustly'? Who makes that judgement call, and what happens to the discards?

[french frank]

A couple of thoughts from the above.
What relationship does the 6% have to the proportion of BAME composers as a group? It is a small figure yes, but taken out of context is meaningless.

Yes, the figure is meaningless in isolation. I wonder if anyone knows/whether it's possible to find out how many BAME classical composers there are (6% could be Errollyn Wallen).

While it may well be the case that networking and 'who you know' disadvantages BAME composers more than others, it could be argued that it isn't a satisfactory situation for anyone.

That seems to be the nub of the question.

Radio 3, by featuring 'unjustly neglected composers' runs into difficulties as far as I'm concerned by using that phrase, however worthy the aim of such an exercise. Why include 'unjustly'? Who makes that judgement call, and what happens to the discards?

And is the 'injustice' the under representation of BAME/women composers or the neglect of any composer who deserves to be commissioned on the basis of their music?

[P. G. Tipps]

p. g. tipps

Interesting point made at the Radio 3 'diversity' conference. It's a bit sloppily written ('Classical music 'excludes' composers from minorities') where 'classical music' is the shorthand for the classical music industry, administrators, bigwigs &c. - even audiences sometimes.

The more interesting point made by Eleanor Alberga is that when she gets a commission it's often with 'a "racial agenda" such as slavery' or about jazz "which I know nothing about". She sees herself as a composer in the classical tradition whereas others see her as a 'black composer'. Not all artists from racial/ethnic minorities want to be campaigning for equality all the time: they just want to be treated equally.

Ah, how refreshing!

Race, Religion, Politics, or whatever, should have no place in the appreciation of great art. When one thinks about it truly great music can appeal to people of all persuasions and skin colour ... that's what makes such music truly universal and great!

Well said, Eleanor!

[Richard Barrett]

Racism is a terrible scourge of people's lives, and we can read every day how alive and well it is in supposedly sophisticated societies. The "classical music world" however is indisputably a bastion of white middle-class (mostly male) dominance; so it's a pretty forlorn hope to expect any lead to be taken from that quarter. As I've said many times here I think the idea of someone composing in "the classical tradition" in 2016 is pretty odd in itself. As for "great music" appealing to people of all races: if they've had a chance to experience it and learn about it in a sympathetic and encouraging environment, which is overwhelmingly not the case among (for example) less well-off non-white people. Classical music is usually played to de facto racially segregated audiences. (Look around you!) In order for all parts of society to be able to appreciate "great art" (from whatever tradition) many fundamental changes in equality and education would have to take place; and this is why one reason why race and politics are always present in the relationship of art to society, whether or not one chooses to ignore or deny this.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

When one thinks about it truly great music can appeal to people of all persuasions and skin colour ... that's what makes such music truly universal and great!

Hmm. Remind us again of the appeal that Brahms' truly universal and great Music has for you, would you ...

[french frank]

As I've said many times here I think the idea of someone composing in "the classical tradition" in 2016 is pretty odd in itself. As for "great music" appealing to people of all races: if they've had a chance to experience it and learn about it in a sympathetic and encouraging environment, which is overwhelmingly not the case among (for example) less well-off non-white people.

This is a complex question. I don't think it's entirely - or even primarily - the 'fault' of the 'classical music world' - bastion of 'white middle-class (mostly male) dominance' though it may be.

The fact that it's offered only to the privileged few is obvious (and regrettable). But why is it not being offered to everyone?

As for composers (and this story is about composers), they may call themselves 'classical' if they wish, or nothing in particular. But contemporary composers only represent a very small part of what 'classical music' is, and is being offered to the few.

[Richard Barrett]

I don't think it's entirely - or even primarily - the 'fault' of the 'classical music world'

Nor do I of course. All I'm saying is that expecting that "world" to take a lead in countering racist exclusion in society is pointless.

[Lat-Literal]

Mixed feelings.

The historical heavyweights were not black. That is a fact - as is the fact that significant revisionism in attitudes towards composers - Mahler, Bruckner, perhaps Dutilleux and many more - has not extended to black composers. Champions are important. None of those have been black. There has not been one to do for any of them as Beecham did for Delius or, say, Rubbra. Rubbra had a tougher time when Beecham could no longer help his cause. So, yes. Black composers have often produced music that is radio friendly but little of it has been on the radio. A common comment on Still is "this is great.......I like Gershwin but I never even knew about Still". Much the same could apply to a Dawson and a Lamothe.

If a group of people of one or more colour has been overlooked for decades, then you can hardly start to play more of their music and not receive the criticism that they are now being played because of their colour. But none of it has been totally clear cut. For people who faced huge prejudice and yet were able to enjoy popularity, see Coleridge-Taylor as well as Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald and Sammy Davis Jr. Much can be said of their compromises - as is said of Obama - but once you are there you are there and a part of it.

Classical music was cosmopolitan in periods when British popular culture could only reach out in respectful terms as far as the white Commonwealth and the United States. Jewish composers could have audiences during times of significant anti-semitism. German composers were not dropped because of the Nazis. Russian composers were admired even in the era of Stalin. Also, elements of orientalism were incorporated because China was on the masses' map. Haitian composers weren't well known because Haiti was not regarded as especially significant. Even today, South American composers are considered to be something of a novelty even though if one were based in Brazil there would be a different emphasis in classicism. I figure that modern black composers in Britain do not have Villa Lobos as a point of orientation-by-reference in the way they would Beethoven or Bach.

There is black music just as there is latin music. I happen to enjoy the parts of classical composition that include spirituals or jazz. However, I don't expect such things in music by all black classical composers and recognise that they will differ as individuals on what they wish to convey. I am also aware that there have been many compositions with black influence produced by whites. The bigger point, surely, is that too many composers, past and present, are overlooked. For example, "Les Six" are hardly treated equally on R3.

To look at just one aspect of modern composition, I have no idea if Errolyn Wallen was asked to provide a work for London 2012 so that a box could be ticked. But I do accept what Alberga is saying because she is in the best position to know. What I and some others on the forum do in a humdrum way is behave as a champion for the lesser known writers because it is off interest - personally, I often prefer them - and it seems like justice. I hope that in highlighting them other people will find them enjoyable too. Idealistically, it is hoped that at some point the key messages will get through to the powers-that-be. But as time moves on one realises that feelings even of small influence can be very misplaced.

[P. G. Tipps]

Hmm. Remind us again of the appeal that Brahms' truly universal and great Music has for you, would you ...

Even I would never describe myself as being particularly 'great and universal' when it comes to artistic appreciation.

I do not confuse great art with personal taste. I have said on a number of occasions on this very forum that my general failure to appreciate much of the output of, say, the Great Johannes is my loss and nobody else's. I have never blamed any composer for a failure of my own personal appreciation, that would be absurd, though I've also never hidden my own particular likes and dislikes! Am I unusually alone in that?

However, Eleanor A. was surely not talking about such a total irrelevancy in the great scheme of things. She was referring to race and the way others have preconceived ideas about race, I simply added religion and politics (and anything else).

On the other hand, to further expand on ff''s point, I have little sympathy for those campaigning to promote artists because of their race, religion, politics etc.

Two sides of the very same coin, imv!

[visualnickmos]

Where the flamin' heck have YOU been all summer......!?

Hope all's well.

[Lat-Literal]

Even I would never describe myself as being particularly 'great and universal' when it comes to artistic appreciation.

I do not confuse great art with personal taste. I have said on a number of occasions on this very forum that my general failure to appreciate much of the output of, say, the Great Johannes is my loss and nobody else's. I have never blamed any composer for a failure of my own personal appreciation, that would be absurd, though I've also never hidden my own particular likes and dislikes! Am I unusually alone in that?

However, Eleanor A. was surely not talking about such a total irrelevancy in the great scheme of things. She was referring to race and the way others have preconceived ideas about race, I simply added religion and politics (and anything else).

On the other hand, to further expand on ff''s point, I have little sympathy for those campaigning to promote artists because of their race, religion, politics etc.

Two sides of the very same coin, imv!

Actually, I think I would - and do - promote some political aspects - Sistema. whatever its faults; the East-Western Divan Orchestra; and Petroc's initiatives in Zimbabwe!!! But on the point of commissions, why wait for one? Today people have more choices. When a white 20-something chooses to produce a work about historical black slavery and two black teenagers embark on projects about (a) the white working class in Dickensian London and (b) the plus points emanating from the 1976 RRA, we will know that society is evolving.

[french frank]

Actually, I think I would - and do - promote some political aspects - Sistema. whatever its faults; the East-Western Divan Orchestra; and Petroc's initiatives in Zimbabwe!!!

I don't think that was quite the same as what Mr Tipps was saying. These are projects - like the BBC's Ten Pieces - which take the music out to whole communities, as against the tokenistic, tick-box promotion of individuals (and in the case of Eleanor Alberga (et al) in a way which is in itself racist, however well-meaning).