Orchestral piano

[EdgeleyRob]

I would suggest that it doesn't quite fit this context; like the Franck Symphonic Variations its a concertante piece, and I think (or I thought) we are looking for orchestral works in which the piano is used as part of the texture, or as an orchestral instrument, if I express myself well, which I probably do not. Has anybody any idea which composers started the trend, and when?

Ah,I had it down as a Symphony that started life as a Fantasie for piano and orchestra.

[BBMmk2]

Slightly different in context here, but some of more longer and sophiscated works of Alkan scream out for orchestra, eg his Overture, concerto and symphony and Les Quatres Ages' Sonate

[Bryn]

Slightly different in context here, but some of more longer and sophiscated works of Alkan scream out for orchestra, eg his Overture, concerto and symphony and Les Quatres Ages' Sonate

I think that with the right pianist they already have an orchestra built in.

[Alison]

I think that with the right pianist they already have an orchestra built in.

[EdgeleyRob]

Slightly different in context here, but some of more longer and sophiscated works of Alkan scream out for orchestra, eg his Overture, concerto and symphony and Les Quatres Ages' Sonate

No BBM,Alkan's biggies are perfect as they are,Bryn has it spot on

[BBMmk2]

No BBM,Alkan's biggies are perfect as they are,Bryn has it spot on

Fair enough!

[Jonathan]

Saint-saens Organ symphony has 2 pianos in the finale section - I suppose that counts as orchestral piano!

[Ferretfancy]

Then there's Debussy's Printemps, a lovely piece that we don't hear very often.

[maestro267]

Only because I'm listening to the former for the first time: Prokofiev's ballets Cinderella and Romeo & Juliet both call for orchestral piano.

[BBMmk2]

Saint-saens Organ symphony has 2 pianos in the finale section - I suppose that counts as orchestral piano!

What a barnstormer!

[subcontrabass]

Saint-saens Organ symphony has 2 pianos in the finale section - I suppose that counts as orchestral piano!

One piano, two players.

[Lat-Literal]

Bernstein - Symphony No 2 - The Age of Anxiety

(The only place where Rachmaninov, Satie, Joplin, Jimmy Webb and Bruce Hornsby and the Range have ever met)

[kea]

I think that with the right pianist they already have an orchestra built in.

I suppose my version of the Concerto for Solo Piano for violin and orchestra (reimagined as Alkan's concerto written for Paganini) won't be wanted then



I really like the piano as an orchestral instrument in general, and feel like it has a pretty wide range of possibilities to offer the traditional orchestra, particularly if used in a nontraditional manner (eg prepared, sound-icon-ised) or for that matter in a "traditional" manner not ordinarily associated with the orchestral piano as we've come to know it in the 21st century, if that makes sense. There seems to be an almost stereotypical use of the orchestral piano in the 20th century that comes down, I think, mainly from Bartók and Stravinsky and Prokofiev, which I think has been pretty well explored at this point.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Another early sighting though Berlioz appears still to be in the lead (if that's the right word):

From Stephen Walsh's Musorgsky and his Circle, discussing Glinka's Ruslan and Ludmilla, "Bayan's gusli - the Russian peasant zither - is represented by piano and harp, a brilliantly successful effect (and probably the first use of the piano as an orchestral instrument rather than as a soloist with orchestra)."

Even putting aside Berlioz's solid right of precedence (Lelio 1832 against R&L's 1837-42), I guess forumistas might disallow the latter's claim completely, either a) because opera orchestras just don't count; or b) perhaps because piano and harp here merely play a duet without orchestral support. I don't possess a recording (and have unaccountably mislaid my full score...) - can anyone clarify?

[It seems clear that Glinka can't have cribbed the idea from Berlioz: see Walsh's comments (ibid. p21 - footnote) on whether G might have known even the Symphonie fantastique before 1840 - unlikely.]

[Alain Maréchal]

Slightly different in context here, but some of more longer and sophiscated works of Alkan scream out for orchestra, eg his Overture, concerto and symphony and Les Quatres Ages' Sonate

Possibly this ought to be mentioned elsewhere, but I heard this Alkan performance last evening, and it is available for re-hearing.

http://www.francemusique.fr/emission/le-concert-du-soir/2016-2017/alkan-chopin-godard-liszt-par-pascal-amoyel-au-theatre-des-bouffes-du-nord-10-08-2016-20