Orchestral piano

[ahinton]

The piano also hs its rôle to play in Roslavets' First Chamber Symphony (from 1926 - a single movement much shorter work than the second which I mentioned earlier); it's just been uploaded to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyB01jPpE7w . The big second one's not been uploaded to YouTube as far as I can tell.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Havergal Brian's Second

And his Third; the piano appears, IIRC, out of the blue at the end of the (twenty-minute long) First Movement - the rest of the orchestra suddenly stops, there's a flourish on the Timps, a few chords from the exposed solo piano, another Timp flourish, another piano flash - and then the Movement stops.

McGonagall Brian.

[Alison]

And his Third; the piano appears, IIRC, out of the blue at the end of the (twenty-minute long) First Movement - the rest of the orchestra suddenly stops, there's a flourish on the Timps, a few chords from the exposed solo piano, another Timp flourish, another piano flash - and then the Movement stops.

McGonagall Brian.

[EdgeleyRob]

Vincent d'Indy – Symphony on a French Mountain Air
Weinberg - Symphony No 8

[Petrushka]

Peter Maxwell Davies St Thomas Wake, A Foxtrot for Orchestra which features a honky tonk piano.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Many of Copland's orchestral scores feature the piano, be it the Symphonic Ode, Short Symphony, Billy the Kid, Appalachian Spring, 3rd Symphony, Connotations or Music for a Great City for example as do some of the symphonies of Roy Harris and William Schuman, the 7th Symphony in particular in the latter's case. Then there's the Barber Symphonies and Violin Concerto.

[Alain Maréchal]

Vincent d'Indy – Symphony on a French Mountain Air

I would suggest that it doesn't quite fit this context; like the Franck Symphonic Variations its a concertante piece, and I think (or I thought) we are looking for orchestral works in which the piano is used as part of the texture, or as an orchestral instrument, if I express myself well, which I probably do not. Has anybody any idea which composers started the trend, and when?

[Alison]

Oh, very good question Alain. Who started it?!

[Alain Maréchal]

Its possible that it could have been earlier than we think - Berlioz, Liszt or Franck perhaps. They are often the surprising culprits.

[Suffolkcoastal]

Oh, very good question Alain. Who started it?!

The earliest one I can think of is Neil's Gade's 5th Symphony from 1852. Though there is the important Piano part in the Tempest movement of Berlioz's Lelio from 1831.

[Thropplenoggin]

I would suggest that it doesn't quite fit this context; like the Franck Symphonic Variations its a concertante piece, and I think (or I thought) we are looking for orchestral works in which the piano is used as part of the texture, or as an orchestral instrument, if I express myself well, which I probably do not. Has anybody any idea which composers started the trend, and when?

Couldn't it be argued that the continuo use of a fortepiano/harpsichord operates in a similar way, adding an extra sonic texture? I know some conductors use a continuo with Haydn.

[Alain Maréchal]

Couldn't it be argued that the continuo use of a fortepiano/harpsichord operates in a similar way, adding an extra sonic texture? I know some conductors use a continuo with Haydn.

A very good point. I am not knowledgeable enough to pronounce, but I wonder if LvB conducted his earlier symphonies from a keyboard and filled in the texture. So there may be a survival of the technique into the nineteenth century that composers then gave up when the pianoforte became too loud to blend in. Later on that same loudness could have been useful in itself as part of the texture. I merely speculate.

Addendum: I answer my own question, and merely mental playing of the music suggests to me that LvB probably didn't. I can't imagine how it would sound or even fit. I think the "survival" theory holds, though.

[Richard Barrett]

Cairns in his book on Berlioz says of the Tempest movement of Lélio (first performed in 1832): "The work marks the first appearance of the piano as an orchestral instrument. Berlioz, who rarely repeated himself, never made use of it again." Berlioz himself in his Treatise describes the piano's appearance thus: "In a chorus of airy spirits, the composer has used two pianos for four hands. The lower pair of hands executes a fast rising arpeggio in triplets, which is answered in the second half of the bar by another, descending arpeggio in three parts played by a piccolo, a flute and a clarinet, above which there is a shimmering double trill in octaves from the upper pair of hands on the piano. No other available instrument could produce this kind of harmonious flutter which the piano has no difficulty in rendering, and which the sylph-like character of the piece requires."

I think what we're talking about here is a very different use of the instrument from basso continuo practice in 18th century music, which may or may not have extended as far as Haydn's London symphonies (what, if anything, would he have been doing with the piano in Symphony no.98 before the last few bars? but this is a whole can of worms that's spilled out in other threads here IIRC), that is to say a situation where the piano is an obligato part of the orchestration.

Bryn's comment on Feldman reminds me that Berio's Concerto for two pianos also involves (rather superfluously, one might think) a third piano in the orchestra.

Martinu of course used the orchestral piano very often, although weirdly his best-known symphony doesn't feature one.

[maestro267]

And his Third; the piano appears, IIRC, out of the blue at the end of the (twenty-minute long) First Movement - the rest of the orchestra suddenly stops, there's a flourish on the Timps, a few chords from the exposed solo piano, another Timp flourish, another piano flash - and then the Movement stops.

McGonagall Brian.

The two pianos in Havergal Brian's Third Symphony appear frequently (to the point where the players are credited as soloists on the Hyperion recording). That passage you speak of is wonderfully dramatic. As well as Nos. 2 & 3, Brian also calls for (one) piano in his Symphonies Nos. 8 and 9.

One that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is Charles Ives' Symphony No. 4. He goes all out here, calling for a solo piano, an orchestral piano (4 hands), and an upright piano tuned a quarter-tone flat.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That passage you speak of is wonderfully dramatic.

Well, there you go.

One that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is Charles Ives' Symphony No. 4. He goes all out here, calling for a solo piano, an orchestral piano (4 hands), and an upright piano tuned a quarter-tone flat.

Ah, yes - the Piano is clearly heard at the very start of the work. IIRC, doesn't the score call for just two pianists sharing the various piano parts (which are positioned on different places on the platform)?

EDIT: a quick glance at the score shows that at least four keyboard players are required (five if the "optional Ether Organ" is used) - in addition to the pianos, there is a celesta and an organ. All four/five aren't required until the final Movement.

https://issuu.com/scoresondemand/docs/symphony_no_4_perf_ed_47475