Serious Music - Definition

[Richard Barrett]

a non serious classical piece: any Vivaldi’s violin concerto

Personally I take Vivaldi's music very seriously indeed and I could bore you all to sleep by explaining why. As I say, it's in the ear of the listener, not stamped into the music. So I agree fully with MrGG that "seriousness" isn't worth taking seriously as a term for describing music.

[doversoul1]

Personally I take Vivaldi's music very seriously indeed and I could bore you all to sleep by explaining why. As I say, it's in the ear of the listener, not stamped into the music. So I agree fully with MrGG that "seriousness" isn't worth taking seriously as a term for describing music.

I should have added or/and

And I agree with you and Mr GG that talking about serious music is not worth taking seriously unless the seriousness to be discussed is precisely defined.

[french frank]

Reminds me of a discussion(which got a bit heated)I heard decades ago about an idea someone put forward to classify music(of a certain kind, this was R3 after all!) as 1st class and 2nd class, and within those categories, 1st or 2nd rate.

I think that was a debate started on the BBC messageboard by Mr Sydney Grew, late of this parish, was not it?

I tend to agree with the view that 'serious music' is used as an alternative to 'classical music' in some cases - and not always in a positive way. There can be overtones of superiority and judgement-making in its usage.

Well, let's face it, audiences for classical music are often accused of/censured for being 'po-faced', 'serious' and looking as if they're not enjoying themselves, as if music should make you smile, clap your hands, snap your fingers, get up and dance …

[MrGongGong]

In that case, replace the word 'definition' with the word 'observation' in my original post and the rest stands. Your 'observation' is an opinion, a statement of 'what you think'. It suggests that either you don't think that music can be serious or that you think all music is serious by virtue of being music.

I think that music can be serious
I think that cheese can be serious
I don't think that what I think has any bearing on what others think
I don't think that what I think is what others should think
I think that those who use the word "serious" to talk about music are often talking bollocks and trying to justify their own sense of superiority
I think that music can be "as serious as your life"
I think that many people take themselves too "seriously" when their time would be better spent taking music "seriously" (which doesn't mean that music is "serious")
and
I don't really give a toss about whether others agree or not

[doversoul1]

What’s an antonym / antonyms of serious when used with music?

[Padraig]

To change the focus - I'm thinking along lines of the concept of 'Voice', where an artist, in this case a composer, tries to find the way in which he wishes to express herself, given the times in which they exist. When one speaks in that voice, which must be true to oneself, one is being serious. Alternatively, they can degrade their talent by successfully writing stuff in which they don't believe but will succeed in some arena.

[french frank]

What’s an antonym / antonyms of serious when used with music?

As Richard said, in Germany there's 'entertainment music'.

[Richard Barrett]

where an artist, in this case a composer, tries to find the way in which he wishes to express herself, given the times in which they exist. When one speaks in that voice, which must be true to oneself, one is being serious. Alternatively, they can degrade their talent by successfully writing stuff in which they don't believe but will succeed in some arena.

It doesn't really work like that.

[doversoul1]

Alternatively, they can degrade their talent by successfully writing stuff in which they don't believe but will succeed in some arena.

Some people say that was what Handel did when he moved on to writing oratorios for his London audience.

ff

As Richard said, in Germany there's 'entertainment music'.

That isn’t a linguistic antonym, is it? Or is it?

[NatBalance]

It's bollocks
'serious music' is simply a name that some people like to use to try and demonstrate that what they like is somehow more significant than what others like.

Good grief, I reckon I might actually agree with you Gongers. Am I alright? (Feels brow for temperature)

Thank you Visualnickmos for your confidence that I am not making an idiot of myself. Let's see if I can keep it up.

I don't particularly defend the term which seems to have no very useful meaning, though I personally would think of it as being any piece of music/work which 'people' find interesting, which engages their full attention, which they would happily listen to attentively as a primary activity, and would still be inclined to do so however many times they'd heard it. It's not a kind of music or genre. It won't be 'here today, gone tomorrow' music and it doesn't have a specific audience. Is that useful? I suspect not.

Well, I don't think any piece could withstand an endless amount of hearings but I think you meant a reasonable amount and for it to still keep its charm over the decades. Where does comedy music fit? I think The Streak by Ray Stevens would fit that description for me. The Monster Mash by Bobby Picket with that opening line "I was working in the lab late one night, when my eyes beheld an erie sight" and the way he sings/says it is brilliant every time. A seriously good piece.

Although I love Rach's 2nd symphony, I don't think of it as great symphony, it's somewhat lumpen and it doesn't seem to 'do' very much (apart from be lovely, though its loveliness may be more important to me than many examples of great music). There aren't any real surprises, no aerating of the form, no subtle prisms in harmony/metre etc, so I understand why it might not be included in a prog about the symphony. But I don't think it's because it has a surfeit of 'nice tunes', as both Mahler and Bruckner for example are full of them, yet both would surely fall into anybody's definition of 'serious' music.

These are the kind of analysis of pieces I find very difficult to understand. I don't know what "it doesn't seem to 'do' very much" means. I am a fan of minimalist music and a big fan of Steve Reich's Music for 18 Musicians and I think it's safe to say that Racher's symphony 'does a lot more' than that. For me, that kind of analysis does not really get to the heart of the matter. I agree they are avenues to explore when trying to analyse a piece of music, but if the piece is not original, there is no aerating of the form and so on, I don't see that they can be sited as reasons to affect the piece's value. There's more to it than that.

I wonder if a programme about The Piano Concerto would include Rachmaninov's 2nd in that category

I remember a fairly local concert including Racher's 2nd symphony having to be given an extra night because so many people wanted to go. The point about it is that those melodies are not just nice melodies, they are over poweringly 'nice'. They tug hard (not gently) at the heart strings (for many listeners anyway), the music in effect makes love to you, it teases you with little snippets till you are dieing to hear the full melody given some force … and you are eventually satisfied in the end …. yes I know, just like Tchaikovsky and Wagner did before him …. but that does not take away from the entrancingly powerfull way in which Rachmaninov does it. It's a bit like Chopin and the nocturne. We all know he did not invent the nocturne. You could also say the same about Elvis and Dusty Springfield. They basically sang blues and gospel music. Nothing new there.

Interesting that you add in brackets "apart from be lovely, though its loveliness may be more important to me than many examples of great music". That is the key to deciding a piece of music's 'greatness' I think. Analysing why certain pieces of music's loveliness (or other emotional attribute) can sometimes be so powerfull? If we could discover that, then such qualities as originality, subtle prisms in harmony/metre would then be put into their proper perspective as really a small part of the equation.

Crumbs, that was a seriously long post.

[MrGongGong]

Good grief, I reckon I might actually agree with you Gongers. Am I alright? (Feels brow for temperature)

You are fine

(recapitulation?)

"Serious" music is performed by teenagers in bands.

[Pianorak]

What’s an antonym / antonyms of serious when used with music?

Easy Listening?

[french frank]

Well, I don't think any piece could withstand an endless amount of hearings but I think you meant a reasonable amount and for it to still keep its charm over the decades.

I think music has to have more than "charm". Not 'endless' (as in playing a new record over and over again on the day you buy it), but life-long and reasonably regularly.

Where does comedy music fit? I think The Streak by Ray Stevens would fit that description for me. The Monster Mash by Bobby Picket with that opening line "I was working in the lab late one night, when my eyes beheld an erie sight" and the way he sings/says it is brilliant every time. A seriously good piece.

These may well be 'seriously good' pieces. The problem with including 'songs' is that people end up only talking about the words, not the music. Does it have a 'serious message'? So on what basis do you assess work that doesn't have words? How can it also be 'seriously good'.

I'm afraid I've conceded enough to Gongers' flip one-liners: i.e. I don't think describing music as 'serious' is particularly useful. But it can in given contexts have meaning, moreso than people writing off 'classical music' as music for old people or 'elitist snobs'.

Complex is a word that's sometimes used as an alternative (not a synonym) - perhaps 'sustained complexity'.

[greenilex]

Couple of ideas: is the word "frivolous" of any use?

And what about concerts in China, say, where the audience talks and does its makeup throughout? My mother would have forty fits, she thinks that if something is worth listening to it deserves one's full attention...

[CallMePaul]

And what about concerts in China, say, where the audience talks and does its makeup throughout?

There was a time when this was common in Europe too!